What do you prioritize first with a rogue build?

[*Khan*]

I'm always uncertain what to prioritize first, when I work on a rogue build, if you have to play it from level 1 and up.
1. Ensure an alternative way to get in sneak attack (besides flanking with another PC) ?
2. Dex to damage (straight Urogue the first 3 levels) ?
3. Saves/AC ?
4. Other suggestions?

[Scavion]

1. Damage(Not necessarily Sneak Attack and only enough to contribute)
2. Saves/AC

Dex to damage is optional. Strength Rogues work rather well even if they aren't very conducive to most concepts. They're less reliant on Sneak Attack which is what makes them good.

If it's a "rogue" build you want instead of a "Rogue" build then I prioritize Stealth and Disable Device. All other skills are to taste for your particular character concept. Archeologist Bard, Half-Elf/Human/Half-Orc, pick Fate's Favored as a trait, Dervish Dance, and Great Fortitude.

Archeologist is rad because their Trapfinding ability applies to ALL perception checks, not just ones to find traps.

[Cavall]

I guess perception. Your role is to help avoid traps more than it is to stab people.

[Scott Wilhelm]

My first question is "What do I want this character to do in Combat: shooty or melee?"

If I want a shooty character, I almost always start it off as a level 1 Fighter to get Precise Shot at level 1.

Then I get Sneak Attack Damage, then I prioritize locking in SAD.

Half Elf, Ancestral Arms, Orc Hornbow, Arcane Training, Arcanist
1Fighter 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2F1Ninja1: Poison, Sneak Attack 1d6
3F1N2: Ki Pool, Ninja Vanishing Trick, Rogue Talent: False Attacker

If I want a melee character, I prioritize getting SA Damage, then locking it in.

[mardaddy]

I cannot help myself but to want a widely skilled PC that can be 2nd or 3rd in damage for the party.

Waaaaay early in PF, that meant rogue. Thing have changed since then.

I just enjoy playing the charismatic ne're-do-well, no matter the class.

[avr]

I wouldn't decide to build a rogue, I'd decide to make a character for some concept or for some mechanic and then decide how to go about it. If that means going for dex to damage ASAP then obviously unrogue 3 is an option, though not the only one. If I was going for decent defences I'd probably do something else.

Concept or mechanic first, then class.

[*Khan*]

Thank you for all your comments.
I was thinking of a melee dex. build, because if I was going for a str build or a ranged build I would properly not be going down the rogue lane, but lets just keep this open as others could find your suggestions useful.

My rogue project is perhaps mostly a self challenge to see if I can make a build primary with URogue levels that are better than what I could make with others classes - not an easy quest.
And it needs to be playable from level 1 and up.

[Zepheri]

Well if is for me I suggest def first. Why you ask. Simple:

1 You are going in melee.

2 You can only use light armor.

3 Since your unrogue give you finesse training you don't need to focus in the beginning for attack.

4 try to improve the wisdom and Constitution if you don't have plans to get iron will or great fortitude

[Meirril]

Cheese or no cheese?

No Cheese its uRogue with dex first, and then next stat based off of what you want to do with the rogue. If you're going to do any talking, boost cha. If you know stuff int. Wis is just a good idea, but not really specific for a skill build. (yes perception and will. I get that, but it isn't a character focus, right? That isn't what you are building a rogue to do, right?) Con is just too good of an idea to pass up.

In general a melee urogue is push dex, then con and wis if you can spare some points. Dump Cha if you don't mind staying quiet. Dump str if you don't mind hitting like a wet noodle for the first 2 levels.

Feat wise, its going to be a bit dependent on what you can get others do to for you. If you have another melee that loves to give you flanking, you don't need to create opportunities yourself. If someone else wants to take team feats, you are a perfect partner. That depends on player cooperation and can make or break a build.

You could also aim for Improved Dirty Fighting trying to blind everything so you can sneak attack all by yourself.

And you could go full cheese by either doing a shikigami style based melee fighter, and take Surprise Weapon for +2 to hit and Makeshift Scrapper to give you 2 feats free.

Or you could do the Deific Obedience trick with a Pharasma worshiping rogue to get a +2 to hit with daggers.

[ErichAD]

I'd focus on making sneak attack either less important to the build, or removing it's many weaknesses. It's expensive to keep sneak attack relevant, so I'd probably just take an archetype to dump it, phantom thief or dreamthief: hatred for an always on damage and to hit buff and some late game sneak attack dice, or anger if you wanted power attack without spending stats on strength.

If you really wanted sneak attack, then I'd focus on the "no sneak attack against concealment" problem, as solutions to that problem are easiest to turn into over all advantages and it's a scenario that appears frequently due to low light conditions and low level obscuring spells and abilities.

Since you generally need to decide this bit at level 1, I prioritize it. VMC possessed sorcerer is a good pick for mid game blindsight, and swap out their first ability for a bloodline familiar at 3rd level granting you a flanking partner and scout. It also fits thematically with the possessed hand feat.

[Zepheri]

Getting vanish whit the major magic can help a rogue to deal good sneak attack but it have the limitations of use per day.
Other is to get a good bonus in use magic device so a wand of vanish is more cheap than a wand of invisibility

[Heather 540]

The Phantom Thief archetype would be pretty good for a skill monkey character. Literally everything but Fly is a class skill, and every odd level they can pick a skill and put half of their levels to the check. Unchained Rogues get the skill unlocks for all of those chosen skills and add half level to the effective ranks to determine when they unlock. Phantom Thieves can also take the Combat Trick talent multiple times, effectively giving them as many feats as a fighter. They can also take the Minor and Major Magic talents multiple times, take vigilante talents, and take the Skill Focus feat as a talent.

[SheepishEidolon]

*Khan* wrote:

My rogue project is perhaps mostly a self challenge to see if I can make a build primary with URogue levels that are better than what I could make with others classes - not an easy quest.

And it needs to be playable from level 1 and up.

Some advantages an (Unchained) rogue has over most classes:

8+Int skill ranks.

Spoiler:

Most effective when used to unlock most class skill bonuses (whopping +3, after all) within 3 levels. At these levels, skills count most anyway.

Combat trick,

Spoiler:

especially if you want two dependant combat feats in short order (such as Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick) or one a level earlier (like a BAB 6 feat).

Minor magic.

Spoiler:

With Unchained it's at will, and in some aspects it's better than a wizard cantrip anyway: Works when silenced, when paralyzed and, most importantly, with sneak attack. Firing a ray of frost during a surprise round (or when you won initiative), with a few extra d6s, is a nice opener, since target's AC will be about 10 (both flat-footed and touch). Has some synergy with the surprise attack trick.

Major magic.

Spoiler:

There are some spells which are better in a rogue's hand than in a wizard's. Shield matters more since you are more likely to be attacked. Shocking grasp with sneak attack dice might earn you complains about "overpowered rogues". Color spray / sleep (just standard action as SLA!) not only takes out enemies, but makes them vulnerable to sneak attack. Chill touch gives multiple touch attacks, though only once a round. Enlarge person (Str rogue buff / ally buff) and reduce person (archer buff) are further candidates, they also profit from needing only a standard action. You can pick up the trick at level 3 with Extra Rogue Trick, if you are in a hurry, for example because color spray and sleep are so level-dependant. The Bookish Rogue feat allows you to switch later, might be worth it for shield. Further, your GM might allow the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat later...

Ninja trick.

Spoiler:

Popular thing to vanish with a swift action, either before or after attacking (no AOO provoked, because swift). Note that the authors appearantly missed to officially allow the ki pool trick for Unchained rogues.

Resiliency.

Spoiler:

Unchained doubled its value. Getting 2 temporary HP per class level once a day doesn't sound like much, but it's nearly as good as +4 Con (for HP, at least) or two times Toughness. You enter battle with d10s (for full HD for PCs) or even d12s (for actual rolling after level 1) instead of d8s. Now the party healer can't heal these HP after the trick was triggered, but they don't have to either - you can use it again next day. If you mind the "once a day" restriction, there is the multitalented trick.

Slow reactions.

Spoiler:

You have to hit and apply sneak attack to deny your target its AOOs, but there is no save. Has some situational use to get into a better position (unless you are threatend by something else), to try disarm / sunder on follow-up attacks or to protect your fellow adventurers from a creature with high range.

[*Khan*]

I agree with Zepheri that defences (AC and saves) are most important to survive for a rogue. The class lacks those so I look for dips in other classes like snakestrike brawler and urban bloodrager, but those delay dex. to damage and advanced rogue talents...
I'm reluctant to dip other than full BAB classes on af melee rogue.

[Meirril]

*Khan* wrote:

I agree with Zepheri that defences (AC and saves) are most important to survive for a rogue. The class lacks those so I look for dips in other classes like snakestrike brawler and urban bloodrager, but those delay dex. to damage and advanced rogue talents...

I'm reluctant to dip other than full BAB classes on af melee rogue.

If you are taking dips on a rogue build, why are you making a rogue? Why not a Slayer, Investigator, Brawler or even a Swashbuckler instead? What do you want the character to do? Or what trick do you want to focus on?

In my opinion, Rogue is one of that classes that you kind of have to commit to it to get the best mileage out of the class. Sneak Attack is suppose to balance out the subpar BAB the class suffers from. Delaying its progress makes rogue a more subpar melee choice. Any dip means you're getting slow progress on sneak attack, and it might be more efficient to just be a Slayer.

Rogue's other main strength is skill points, but that neuters itself since the Rogue's primary stats are Dex and there aren't that many dex skills. Most of the important skills are int and cha, and if you don't make those your primary stat you'll have a hard time hitting the DC when the party needs you to.

That leaves other tricks you're trying to make work from the Rogue Talents. Without knowing specifically what you want to do, there is no real advice. Trying to make 1 specific trick work is the specialty of dipping a lot of classes to support that trick. Nobody can help unless they know what you're going for.

[gnoams]

First, realize that class is not how you should define your character in pf1.

A brutal pirate who savages enemies with his powerful charge.
A member of the secret police of Taldor
An assassin
A courtesan
A charming explorer and parkour expert
The head of a crime syndicate, running protection rackets and extortion
A devout Pharasmite who works tirelessly to put the undead to rest
A medical doctor from Lepidstadt university

These are all PCs that I have played or played with that were built using the rogue class. Who your character is and what you want them to be good at should dictate what you prioritize for your build.

[*Khan*]

Jep I know.
As I wrote earlier it is the challenge of making a (primary) Urogue build that works better than alternative classes as the Core of the build.
My headache is what to prioritize first as I wrote in the top.

[gnoams]

For generic advice, I like to look at the automatic bonus progression table. That gives me a list of what level the folks at paizo think I should get a +1 weapon, when I should upgrade my cloak of resistance to +2 etc.

For anything else, well I played the Iron Gods AP in a group with 3 rogues. One flanked with their pet monkey, the second threw knives, and the third was the party healer. Those three characters all had very different priorities for abilities and gear.

[Scavion]

*Khan* wrote:

My rogue project is perhaps mostly a self challenge to see if I can make a build primary with URogue levels that are better than what I could make with others classes - not an easy quest.
And it needs to be playable from level 1 and up.

Old threads but might be good reading material for you. TLDR: Vanilla Rogue has a hard time doing anything better than a minimally optimized Bard. Unchained Rogue has some solid strength brute/intimidate builds, but is still kinda meh on Dex builds.

Link 1

Link 2

[Scott Wilhelm]

This is a melee build based on skirmishing around the battlefield. Meet Bonza!!. Yes, the 2 exclamation points are part of the spelling of his name.