Unchained Rogue / Goblin - Optimise


Advice


Hi there,

This is my first post, please treat me well :)
I would like to have some tips to build an unchained rogue / goblin, 9th level, to be nimble and cruel.

I chose

Feat: (are they good?)
- Weapon Focus
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Fast Stealth
- Twist Away
- Extra Rogue Talent

Rogue Talents: (I need three more)
- Resiliency
- Combat Trick
-
-
-

Which weapon finesse to chose?

I have to spend 46000gp

I bought
Celestial Armor 22,400gp

something else?

Thank you in advance.


I wouldn't get extra rogue talent until you've picked the others.

Also you're picking combat trick to learn a feat then spending a feat to learn a rogue talent. Seems redundant.

You've enough levels for shattered defenses. Maybe look into intimidate skill unlock and that feat.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is a rogue talent (Weapon Training) that gives you the Weapon Focus feat. Since you have filled up more feat slots than rogue talent slots, you may want to take that as one of your rogue talents in order to free up a feat slot for something else.


I updated in this way:

Feat:
- Sap Master
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Fast Stealth
- Twist Away
- Extra Rogue Talent

Rogue Talents:
- Resiliency
- Combat Trick
- Weapon Training
- Combat Swipe
- Canny Observer

Equipment:
Celestial Armor

Weapons?


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It may be comic, but as a good defense pick up the feat Roll with It! It's a Goblin only feat (Goblins of Golarion), along with the traits Bouncy and Restless Hunger or Mother's Teeth. Another good feat from GoG is {Burn! Burn! Burn!} and {Dog Killer, Horse Hunter} might also have some odd use.

For equipment, from GoG is Vicious Caltrops and Tossglove may be of some interesting use.

For standard gear, a Dogslicer or Horsechopper for that Goblin pride.


I have some ideas. More later.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I have some ideas. More later.

Then, I will wait for you :)

@Scrapper: Thank you for your valuable advice.
edit: for trait I have chosen Color Thief: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Stealth checks, providing you wear only light armor or no armor.


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Goblin
Level 1, Brawler1: Unarmed 1d4, Sneak Attack 1d6, Combat Expertise
2B2: Improved Feint

Feint as a Move Action, Attack as a Standard Action, lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.

3B2Arcanist1 Dimensional Slide, Roll with It

Dimensional Slide is a tactical teleport with a 10' range that you can do as part of your move. This should make it easier to achieve Flanking. I like the idea of having several ways of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage. At level 3, this character can Feint and teleport to Flank.

This Goblin can now use Magic Wands such as Greater Invisibility and Blink. It's unlikely that he will get one by level 3, but this is another Growth area for the character and potentially another way to lock in SAD.

4B3A1 Snake Feint

Feint while you are moving.

5B3A1Unchained Rogue1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike)
6B3A1U2: Ninja Trick, Style Master, Panther Style, Evasion

You get a Swift Action Attack when you provoke an Attack of Opportunity while moving out of a Threatened Square.

7B3A1U3: Finesse Training, SAD+1d6, Dodge, Danger Sense+1
8B3A1U4: Combat Trick, Panther Claw, Uncanny Dodge, Debilitating Injury
9B3A1U5: SAD+1d6, Mobility, Rogue's Edge

Dodge and Mobility are important for this character since he will be provoking lots of Attacks of Opportunity.

Panther Claw allows the Goblin to make extra attacks by provoking Attacks of Opportunity by moving out of Threatened Squares.

10B3A1U5Monk1: Monk Stuff, Master of Many Styles, Snake Style
11B3A1U6M1: Snake Sidewind, Underhanded Trick, Danger Sense +2
12B3A1U7M1: SAD +1d6
13B3A1U8M1: Snake Fang, Talent

Snake Fang gives you an Attack of Opportunity whenever you are attacked and missed.

So we have a very high AC character who runs all over the battlefield drawing attacks of opportunity and getting lots of attacks every round with lots of ways of locking in Sneak Attack Damage.


@ScottWilhelm
Wow Impressive post!
This evening after work, I’ll start to study it and let you know with a recap of everything.

Thank you so much guys \m/


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Experience wrote:

I updated in this way:

Feat:
- Sap Master
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Fast Stealth
- Twist Away
- Extra Rogue Talent

Rogue Talents:
- Resiliency
- Combat Trick
- Weapon Training
- Combat Swipe
- Canny Observer

Equipment:
Celestial Armor

Weapons?

So I like the Sap Master idea, but you need sap adept as a prerequisite.

You NEED your opponent to be flat footed. The easy way to get that is to hide and perform a sneak attack. However, that only works for a single strike. And after the first strike...your opponents won't let you get away. So you need another way to get them flat footed. So take Improved Dirty Trick and take Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise to qualify for it.

For a weapon, you're goal is sneak attack damage. You need a Blunt weapon for Sap Adept/Master. And it needs to be non-lethal. Honestly, how much damage the weapon itself does shouldn't matter to you. The difference between a d2 and a d10 isn't going to matter in the face of your bonus damage. Let me present to you the Kunai. It is blunt or piercing when you need it to be, can be thrown (only a 10' increment), and qualifies for Weapon Finesse as a light weapon. And wielding 2 of them lets you take the smallest possible penalty from two weapon fighting.

Enchant two of them with Merciful and they suddenly become a sap master's friend. A +1 merciful kunai would be 8k. A +1 merciful returning seeking kunai would be 32k and decent for the occasional throw.

So lets go over feats:

Sap Adept
Sap Master
Dirty Fighting
Improved Dirty Trick
Fast Stealth

Rogue Talents:
Weapon Training: Kunai
Combat Trick: Two Weapon Fighting
Trap Spotter (or don't bother learning perception)
Canny Observer
Resiliency (don't need this, easy to trade out)

If you team up with a party member to flank a creature, you're first attack should be a Dirty Trick to blind the creature (cut above eyes, throw sand, bucket on head, spit in eye, something cleaver) which will be at +4 thanks to Dirty Fighting, followed up with 2 kunai attacks at -5 BAB vs a flat footed opponent that you have flanking on. You'll do 1d3 + dex + magic weapon bonus + 5 (sap adept) + 10d6 sneak attack + 1d6 merciful in non-lethal damage per attack that hits.


@Meirril Thank you for your support.

This is my sheet, not yet updated with your last tips:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1954362

This evening (uk time) I will organise your suggestions and fill the gaps of the sheet and let you know.

Thanks


@Meirril @Scott Wilhelm suggested some feats from Goblin race, do you think should I mix the stuff from Scott and you, or to follow a single line?


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Roll with It! is a great feat. It can save your life at the cost of a turn. I'd look into it for sure. That being said your current line up of feats is rather full. You'll have to make that call if it's worth it to you.


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Meirril wrote:
You NEED your opponent to be flat footed. The easy way to get that is to hide and perform a sneak attack. However, that only works for a single strike. And after the first strike...your opponents won't let you get away. So you need another way to get them flat footed. So take Improved Dirty Trick and take Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise to qualify for it.

Dirty Tricks will not make your opponent Flatfooted. It can make your opponent Blinded, and attacking a Blinded Opponent, you target their Flatfooted AC, but that is not quite the same thing as making your opponent properly Flatfooted.

Experience wrote:
do you think should I mix the stuff from Scott and you

Mixing is a possibility.

Only Sap Master requires your opponent to be properly Flatfooted. Sap Adept works with any opponent denied Dex Mod to AC, so Dirty Tricks works for that. Sap Adept requires you inflict nonlethal Damage with a Bludgeoning Weapon. I was recommending Unarmed Strikes.

There is another Feat. Knockout Artist does about the same thing as Sap Adept; then should stack, and Knockout Artist does not require your opponent be Flatfooted: Denied Dex Mod to AC is adequate for that, so once again, it will work with Dirty Tricks. With Sap Adept and Knockout Artist, you will be doing +2 Damage per Sneak Attack Damage Die, and that is pretty sexy.

Sap Master, though, will double the number of Damage Dice you get. The best way I can think of to make your opponent properly Flatfooted for some duration is the Shatter Defenses Feat. The prerequisite for that is Dazzling Display. To use Dazzling Display, you would spend a Full Round Action Intimidating all your opponents within 30', making them all Shaken. Then each one you hit after that becomes Flatfooted as part of your attack. Then hits after that will get the Sneak Attack Damage, doubled if you have Sap Master.

Another way to activate Shatter Defenses would be with the Cornugon Smash Feat. That gives you a Free Intimidate on any 1 opponent you just hit with Power Attack, so then the next hit you could make them Flatfooted with Shatter Defenses, and the attacks after that you make against Flatfooted Opponents. Fully realizing Sap Master is both Feat and labor intensive, but if you are already taking Sap Adept and Knockout Artist, Sap Master, Shatter Defenses, + Cornugon Smash might just be the perfect cherry on this little green sundae of distruction!


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Cavall wrote:
Roll with It! is a great feat. It can save your life at the cost of a turn. I'd look into it for sure. That being said your current line up of feats is rather full. You'll have to make that call if it's worth it to you.

I love Roll with It. I put it in the build I posted on this thread. I'm thinking that you can use it in conjunction with Panther Style Feats. You will be Staggered after your turn is over, but you can pick the direction in which you Roll, so you can still Provoke more Attacks of Opportunity and make sure you continue to score on those Free Action Retaliatory Strikes.

I've been nursing another idea: how could we work in the Goblin Feat Tangle Feet? If you make an Acrobatics Check through a Threatened Square, then they fall Prone (Reflex Negates), then take Vicious Stomp to get an Attack of Opportunity!

I'm thinking that you use Tangle Feet. If your check Fails, you use Panther Claw. If their AoO misses, you get an AoO off of Snake Fang. If their AoO hits, you get to Roll with It. This character should get a Crown of Swords, summoning a Spiritual Sword to attack anyone who hits him. That way, they're Damned if they hit or if they miss!

We need to figure out how to go Full Goblin.


Experience wrote:

@Meirril Thank you for your support.

This is my sheet, not yet updated with your last tips:
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1954362

This evening (uk time) I will organise your suggestions and fill the gaps of the sheet and let you know.

Thanks

I saw Hop Frog is using a Repeating Crossbow, which is an Exotic Weapon. I saw something about a Hand Crossbow, a different Exotic Weapon. I'm not sanguine about either. You could just use a regular bow, or maybe a Firearm.

I do have a build for a Goblin/Gredadier/Gunslinger, but that would take your character in a very different direction from your UCRogue.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


I saw Hop Frog is using a Repeating Crossbow, which is an Exotic Weapon. I saw something about a Hand Crossbow, a different Exotic Weapon. I'm not sanguine about either. You could just use a regular bow, or maybe a Firearm.

I do have a build for a Goblin/Gredadier/Gunslinger, but that would take your character in a very different direction from your UCRogue.

Hi Scott, my weapons are there provisionally. It's a work in progress, I need to change them, so feel free to recommend any idea.

I told with the master, the character sheet isn't necessary immediately, there is some time to fill it. Because at the beginning the story will be colloquial.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Meirril wrote:
You NEED your opponent to be flat footed. The easy way to get that is to hide and perform a sneak attack. However, that only works for a single strike. And after the first strike...your opponents won't let you get away. So you need another way to get them flat footed. So take Improved Dirty Trick and take Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise to qualify for it.

Dirty Tricks will not make your opponent Flatfooted. It can make your opponent Blinded, and attacking a Blinded Opponent, you target their Flatfooted AC, but that is not quite the same thing as making your opponent properly Flatfooted.

Ugh. Yeah, I though blinded would be good enough. Sap Master is incredibly powerful, so of course they made the condition really difficult to achieve.

Shatter Defenses is the most workable way for this goblin to get flat footed. Getting power attack on a goblin is a waste of stat points.

So drop: dirty fighting and improved dirty trick
pick up: Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses

And buy a Maiden's helm to give yourself a bonus to intimidate.


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Meirril wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Meirril wrote:
You NEED your opponent to be flat footed. The easy way to get that is to hide and perform a sneak attack. However, that only works for a single strike. And after the first strike...your opponents won't let you get away. So you need another way to get them flat footed. So take Improved Dirty Trick and take Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise to qualify for it.

Dirty Tricks will not make your opponent Flatfooted. It can make your opponent Blinded, and attacking a Blinded Opponent, you target their Flatfooted AC, but that is not quite the same thing as making your opponent properly Flatfooted.

Ugh. Yeah, I though blinded would be good enough. Sap Master is incredibly powerful, so of course they made the condition really difficult to achieve.

Shatter Defenses is the most workable way for this goblin to get flat footed. Getting power attack on a goblin is a waste of stat points.

So drop: dirty fighting and improved dirty trick
pick up: Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses

And buy a Maiden's helm to give yourself a bonus to intimidate.

I do like Dirty Tricks, though.

Greater Dirty Trick lasts for a few rounds.

Quick Dirty Trick lets you play a Dirty Trick in place of a melee attack.

If you run into an opponent who has Blindfighting or Blindsight, you can use Dirty Tricks to Deafen them as well as Blind them, and you can still lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.

It's also worth remembering that while Sap Master does double your SAD dice, it also commits you to inflicting nonlethal damage, and there are problems with that.


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I have another idea for doubling the Sneak Attack Damage. Hamatula Strike. The Hamatula Strike Feat gives you a Grapple attack whenever you hit someone with a Piercing Weapon. Wear Armor Spikes, and you do piercing Damage with every successful Grapple Attack. And since a Grapple check is an attack itself, those Armor Spikes can then also inflict Sneak Attack Damage.

I was recommending Snake Style. Snake Style lets you treat your Unarmed Strikes as Piercing Weapons. Subsequently releasing the Grapple so you can move onto the next guy is a Free Action.

Getting extra attacks that cascade off of previously successful attacks are not as good as doubling your damage dice on the first go, but Sap Master has it's problems, too.

Becoming a good Grappler is harder for a little Goblin, but it is doable. I had a Grappling Character once who had a full time GMB of +30. If she were Size Small and had a -2 ST, her GMB would have been 26 instead, unless she also took Agile Maneuvers or something. Even so, a GMB of 26 is more than respectable, and the idea of kicking ass as a Grappling Goblin is frickin' hilarious!


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Okay, yet another thought: instead of Hamatula Strike, how about a level in Witch with the White Hair archetype + Feral Combat Training? White Hair also gives you a free Grapple like Hamatula strike would, but it gives you more flexibility.

You'd take the level in WHW at level 13 instead of the 8th level in Rogue.

13B3A1U7M1Witch1: Snake Fang, White Hair

Snake Fang is still the level 13 Feat. Now I know what I want for the Rogue Talent.

14B3A1U8M1W1: Weapon Training, White Hair
15B3A1U8M1W1Cavalier1: Feral Combat Training, Challenge, Tactician, Paired Opportunist, Constable, Order of the Penitent

With Feral Combat Training, the Goblin can make his Free Action Attack with Panther Claw and his Attack of Opportunity with Snake Fang, + his Immediate Action Attack with Snake Fang all with his Hair, each one granting the free Grapples that will benefit from the +1 due to Weapon Focus and will unlock the Armor Spike Damage which can still benefit from Sneak Attack Damage.

Tactician allows the Goblin to grant the Cavalier's Bonus Teamwork Feat to the whole party: Paired Opportunist. Paired Opportunist makes it so whenever any of you get an Attack of Opportunity, all of you do, and this character will get many, many Attacks of Opportunity! Order of the Penitent? Well,

16B3A1U8M1W1C2: Expert Captor

This will allow you to Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned! opponent, and you don't take th e-10 you usually do. So, you hit your opponent with Panther Claw on the first Round, then you Grapple them as a Free Action, then you Grapple them again as an Attack of Opportunity, and you Tie them UP! And you can just run all over the battlefield doing this!

The fastest way I can think of to increase your Grapple Mod is through levels in Alchemist. Since this character depends on Sneak Attack Damage, lets make him a Vivisectionist.

17B3A1U8M1W1C2Vivisectionist1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Mutagens, Extracts, Throw Anything, Brew Potion, Panther Parry
18B3A1U8M1W1C2V2: Tentacle, Poison Resistance +2, Poison

Tentacle gives you Grab, which gives you a +4 on all Grapple Checks. Like White Hair, Grab also gives you a Free Action Attack on a hit with the Tentacle, but unlike the Hair, Grab can only be used to Initiate the Grapple, not to make a Maintain roll.

19B3A1U8M1W1C2V3: Sneak Attack +1d6, Swift Alchemy, Underfoot
20B3A1U8M1W1C2V4: King Crab Tumor Familiar

Underfoot is a prerequisite for Tangle Feet, and I do like Tangle Feet + Vicious Stomp, but also, it gives a +2 to your AC against Attacks of Opportunity provoked by moving out of Threatened Squares, which you do when you use Panther Style. Remember that Snake Fang only triggers when your opponent misses you. Also, when fighting opponents with Reach, you still need to Tumble, and Underfoot gives you a +4 to your Tumble checks.

The King Crab Familiar gives you a +2 on your Grapple Checks.

20B3A1U8M1W1C2V5: Sneak Attack +1d6, Poison Resistance +4
21B3A1U8M1W1C2V6: Infusion, Improved Grapple
22B3A1U8M1W1C2V6Fighter1: Greater Grapple
23B3A1U8M1W1C2V6F2: Tangle Feet, Vicious Stomp

Hehe, so True Strike works on Grapple Checks. There is an Alchemist Extract called Touch Injection which you can use to give your Familiar the Ability to administer an Achemal Infusion. Say True Strike. Greater Grapple lets you make a Grapple Check as a Move Action. So, lets say you begin your Round Adjacent to your opponent buffed with True Striek the previous round. You Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, enjoying the +20 from True Strike, then your Familiar hits you with Touch Injection and your Infusion of True Strike as a Readied Action, then you make your second Grapple Check as a Move Action, Tying Up your opponent again with that +20!

With Roll with It, Tangle Feet, and levels in Alchemist, I think we have gone FULL GOBLIN! I think this character will be pretty outrageously powerful even for a 23rd level character.

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