I think I have this wrong but am having difficulty figurine out why. Hopefully someone can clear up my confusion.
Subordinate Actions (p. 462): Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions.
Sneak Attack (p. 181): If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition...
Twin Feint (p. 183): Make one Strike with each of your two melee weapons...The target is automatically flat-footed against the second attack.
My understanding of the above is that that only the basic Strike action would qualify for sneak attack damage. The Strike in Twin Feint is a subordinate action,so isn't the same as a Strike and therefore you wouldn't apply Sneak Attack damage.
No, you're over thinking it but it probably could also be better worded.
Twin Feint tells you that you're making a Strike with each weapon, so you are. Are strikes qualify for sneak attack if they're made against a flat-footed opponent.
This was geared toward other interactions, though I can't think of an example off the top of my head.
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If something says "make a Strike", you cannot make a Twin Feint, because Twin Feint is not a Strike.
If something, like Sneak Attack, applies to all Strikes, it applies to the Strikes contained within Twin Feint, because they are Strikes.
Thank you both.
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The Subordinate Action rules saying, "Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions," is poor phrasing. What the sentence really means is a feat that is described as its own action or activity with subordinate actions, such as Power Attack (fighter feat 1, page 144) containing a Strike, then it counts as its own action type rather than a modified version of its subordinate action. If a character is Hasted to gain an extra Strike action, then he or she cannot use that extra action for a Power Attack because Power Attack is not a Strike, it merely contains a Strike. However, the modified Strike inside a Power Attack still counts as a Strike.
Note that Twin Feint lacks an Attack trait of its own because the two Strikes inside it each have the attack trait, so a Twin Feint is two attacks. Declaring Twin Feint itself as an attack would make that three attacks by the rules, which is not accurate.
The main feature of subordinate actions is that they do not count against the three actions a character can take during his or her turn.
My understanding of the above is that that only the basic Strike action would qualify for sneak attack damage. The Strike in Twin Feint is a subordinate action,so isn't the same as a Strike and therefore you wouldn't apply Sneak Attack damage.
I believe the Paizo developers chose this subordinate action system to avoid distinguishing between "Strike" and "basic Strike." If an action is a Strike, even if it is subordinate or if it has restrictions such as a Strike against a flat-footed foe, it is 100% a Strike. Anything that applies to Strikes applies to it. Pathfinder 1st Edition sometimes was confusing because an attack was not necessarily the same as a standard attack.
For those of us who just woke up and haven't had our coffee: Does this mean the second strike in Twin Feint does NOT get the additional precision damage die from Sneak Attack?
For those of us who just woke up and haven't had our coffee: Does this mean the second strike in Twin Feint does NOT get the additional precision damage die from Sneak Attack?
No, Sneak Attack is a passive benefit that benefits all Strikes, even subordinate ones. If Sneak Attack was itself an action with Strike as a subordinate action, *then* you wouldn't be able to use it with Twin Feint.
For those of us who just woke up and haven't had our coffee: Does this mean the second strike in Twin Feint does NOT get the additional precision damage die from Sneak Attack?
Many forms of flat-footedness last through an entire turn, such as flat-footed from flanking and flat-footed from a rogue's Surprise Attack ability. A second Strike gains Sneak Attack if the target remains flat-footed, regardless of whether it is bundled into a two-Strike activity or not.
Flat-footedness due to attacking from hiding lasts for only one attack: "If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flatfooted against that attack, and you then become observed."
Twin Feint is a special case. It gives flat-footedness to the second Strike on its own.
TWIN FEINT [two-actions] FEAT 1
ROGUE
Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.
You make a dazzling series of attacks with both weapons, using the first attack to throw your foe off guard against a second attack at a different angle. Make one Strike with each of your two melee weapons, both against the same target. The target is automatically flat-footed against the second attack. Apply your multiple attack penalty to the Strikes normally.
Thus, if a rogue character attacks with Twin Feint from hiding, then the Twin Feint's first Strike gains Sneak Attack damage from the hiding and the Twin Feint's second Strike gains Sneak Attack damage from Twin Feint itself. If the rogue attacks a non-flat-footed enemy, the second Strike still gains Sneak Attack. If the enemy is flat-footed from flanking, then the rogue has no reason to use Twin Feint.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. Our ranger was fighting the enemy rogue with our liberator champion nearby. When the enemy damaged the ranger with the first Strike of Twin Feint, the champion used Liberating Step to give the ranger a Step. The ranger stepped out of range of the second Strike of Twin Feint. The enemy rogue ended up using two actions for what was essentially an ordinary Strike. And he would have had to use his third action to move into range again, so he had no way to make a second Strike that turn. The enemy rogue had to give up on Twin Feint and just make plain Strikes in order to have more than one Strike per turn. The ranger, in contrast, had Twin Takedown with no champion saving the enemy from the second Strike.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. Our ranger was fighting the enemy rogue with our liberator champion nearby. When the enemy damaged the ranger with the first Strike of Twin Feint, the champion used Liberating Step to give the ranger a Step. The ranger stepped out of range of the second Strike of Twin Feint. The enemy rogue ended up using two actions for what was essentially an ordinary Strike. And he would have had to use his third action to move into range again, so he had no way to make a second Strike that turn. The enemy rogue had to give up on Twin Feint and just make plain Strikes in order to have more than one Strike per turn. The ranger, in contrast, had Twin Takedown with no champion saving the enemy from the second Strike.
That's not really a failing of twin feint, that's a failing of fighting more than enemy at a time.
Also, the rogue could have easily had reactive pursuit. Actually, I'm not sure why they didn't since it's a pretty low level feat and rogues don't have a lot of reactions available to them.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. Our ranger was fighting the enemy rogue with our liberator champion nearby. When the enemy damaged the ranger with the first Strike of Twin Feint, the champion used Liberating Step to give the ranger a Step. The ranger stepped out of range of the second Strike of Twin Feint. The enemy rogue ended up using two actions for what was essentially an ordinary Strike.
Is this how it should be? When Twin Feint states "Make one Strike with each of your two melee weapons" I understand they are executed simultaneously, as in, you roll the two d20s and the Strikes happen as rolled. The Liberator can choose which of the Strikes to mitigate, but both will apply its effects before the Step.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. ...That's not really a failing of twin feint, that's a failing of fighting more than enemy at a time.
The party had five members, all 4th level. The enemy force had five members, ranging from 1st level to 7th level and technically was a little bit more powerful than the party. Thus, the party ambushed the enemy where terrain would split up the enemy (Fording a River) and then doubled up on the most powerful enemy, the 7th-level rogue.
Also, the rogue could have easily had reactive pursuit. Actually, I'm not sure why they didn't since it's a pretty low level feat and rogues don't have a lot of reactions available to them.
The enemy rogue is from an adventure path, so I am putting up a spoiler warning.
Trail of the Hunted 2e Conversion; however, I, too, would have not considered Reactive Pursuit.
In the original module Scarvinious is a 5th-level bugbear slayer, CR 7, with two-weapon combat style and the feats Double Slice, Toughness, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon
Fighting, Weapon Focus (short sword). He also have sneak attack +1d6 and studied target +2. He wields a pair of +1 short swords, and carries a mwk composite shortbow for ranged comat.
Tonaxian's conversion made him a creature 7, who uses rogue abilities since slayer is not available in PF2. His special abilities are Deny Advantage (3rd-level rogue feature), Twin Feint (rogue feat 1), Brutal Beating (rogue feat 2), Quick Draw (rogue feat 2), Sneak Attack +2d6 (5th-level rogue feature), and critical specialization (5th-level rogue feature). He wields two +1 striking shortswords, and has a +1 composite shortbow for ranged combat.
The PF2 style for NPCs is to give them fewer feats and features to keep the stat blocks short and simple, and give them boosts to weapon and spell proficiency to make up for the deficiency. Thus, PF2 Scarvinious has only 3 feats compared to PF1 Scarvinious's 5 feats. In contrast, the PF2 version had a +18 to hit with his shortswords compared tothe PF1 version's +11 to hit with his shortswords.
Twin Feint justified Scarvinious's two-weapon fighting and Quick Draw fixes the weakness of PF2 two-weapon fighting that drawing each weapon takes a full Interact action. Brutal Beating is an odd choice, but it reflects the description of his combat tactics as trying to break his enemy's spirit and the brutality of his known history.
Nothing in this PF1 character's build suggests Reactive Pursuit. The purpose of adding Reactive Pursuit to this character in the PF2 conversion would be to fix the weakness in Twin Feint. This does not mean that Twin Feint lacks that weakness; instead, it just means that the weakness can be eliminated at 4th level. We lacked the experience with Twin Feint to realize that fixing the weakness was important.
Is this how it should be? When Twin Feint states "Make one Strike with each of your two melee weapons" I understand they are executed simultaneously, as in, you roll the two d20s and the Strikes happen as rolled. The Liberator can choose which of the Strikes to mitigate, but both will apply its effects before the Step.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. Our ranger was fighting the enemy rogue with our liberator champion nearby. When the enemy damaged the ranger with the first Strike of Twin Feint, the champion used Liberating Step to give the ranger a Step. The ranger stepped out of range of the second Strike of Twin Feint. The enemy rogue ended up using two actions for what was essentially an ordinary Strike.
PF2 has no simultaneous Strikes. Twin Feint specifically mentions the first attack and the second attack so they have an order. It also reminds us that the multiple attack penalty applies normally to the two Strikes according to their order. The Liberating Step intervenes once the first Strike deals its damage, because it is a reaction triggered by damage, grab, or grapple.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. ...That's not really a failing of twin feint, that's a failing of fighting more than enemy at a time.The party had five members, all 4th level. The enemy force had five members, ranging from 1st level to 7th level and technically was a little bit more powerful than the party. Thus, the party ambushed the enemy where terrain would split up the enemy (Fording a River) and then doubled up on the most powerful enemy, the 7th-level rogue.
Also, the rogue could have easily had reactive pursuit. Actually, I'm not sure why they didn't since it's a pretty low level feat and rogues don't have a lot of reactions available to them.The enemy rogue is from an adventure path, so I am putting up a spoiler warning.
** spoiler omitted **...
I guess my point was, I feel if you built the character from the ground up in PF2 there is room (and it makes sense to) give the character reactive pursuit in my opinion. It's one of the few reactions available to rogues and is in general a pretty roguey act.
It's more situational than some other options, but available much sooner. You won't always be giving chase to an enemy (but it's really good when you are).I guess my point was, I feel if you built the character from the ground up in PF2 there is room (and it makes sense to) give the character reactive pursuit in my opinion. It's one of the few reactions available to rogues and is in general a pretty roguey act.Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. ...That's not really a failing of twin feint, that's a failing of fighting more than enemy at a time.The party had five members, all 4th level. The enemy force had five members, ranging from 1st level to 7th level and technically was a little bit more powerful than the party. Thus, the party ambushed the enemy where terrain would split up the enemy (Fording a River) and then doubled up on the most powerful enemy, the 7th-level rogue.
Also, the rogue could have easily had reactive pursuit. Actually, I'm not sure why they didn't since it's a pretty low level feat and rogues don't have a lot of reactions available to them.The enemy rogue is from an adventure path, so I am putting up a spoiler warning.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think a lot of the level 4 feats are really situational, or in a specific niche (like poison weapons). At least this one gets you a reaction you wont have had.
PF2 has no simultaneous Strikes. Twin Feint specifically mentions the first attack and the second attack so they have an order. It also reminds us that the multiple attack penalty applies normally to the two Strikes according to their order. The Liberating Step intervenes once the first Strike deals its damage, because it is a reaction triggered by damage, grab, or grapple.Is this how it should be? When Twin Feint states "Make one Strike with each of your two melee weapons" I understand they are executed simultaneously, as in, you roll the two d20s and the Strikes happen as rolled. The Liberator can choose which of the Strikes to mitigate, but both will apply its effects before the Step.
Two weeks ago, my party fought a high-level rogue with Twin Feint. They discovered a weakness in the tactic. Our ranger was fighting the enemy rogue with our liberator champion nearby. When the enemy damaged the ranger with the first Strike of Twin Feint, the champion used Liberating Step to give the ranger a Step. The ranger stepped out of range of the second Strike of Twin Feint. The enemy rogue ended up using two actions for what was essentially an ordinary Strike.
That's not quite correct. PF2 does have simultaneous actions. The other factor at play is triggered actions being able to happen during another action.
You can use only one single action, activity, or free action
that doesn’t have a trigger at a time. You must complete
one before beginning another. For example, the Sudden
Charge activity states you must Stride twice and then
Strike, so you couldn’t use an Interact action to open a door
in the middle of the movement, nor could you perform part
of the move, make your attack, and then finish the move.
Free actions with triggers and reactions work differently.
You can use these whenever the trigger occurs, even if the
trigger occurs in the middle of another action.
So yes, technically both Strikes made as part of Twin Feint are Simultaneous, so you as the Twin Feinting character are unable to make another action between them. But the Champion's Liberating Step is a triggered reaction, and is thus able to occur during another action or activity, in this case between the two strikes made as part of Twin Feint.
It's a relatively minor rules quirk, but simultaneous actions do exist, mostly as a part of Activities.