You can only command it if you can communicate with it.
The minion trait just means you're allowed to command it, and you perform the action when you sustain (for summoned creatures). This is important because it specifies when you can command it, which means there could be a delay in what tactics you'd like it to use and what order you've issued it.
For example if an enemy does something unexpected right after your turn, you can't change your orders to the summon. You have to wait until your next turn.
So there's no problem here, it's just different information that all applies.
You can command it (when you sustain). You're command is only meaningful (only works) if your summon understands what you've said. Usually by sharing a language.
Summon does not pull actual creatures, it's more like the magic temporarily creates a creature from the idea of the kind of creature you summon. They don't actually die and aren't actual creatures.
If PF1 you had the gate spell, which did allow you to get an actual specific creature, but while it was conjuration magic, it wasn't summoning magic.
No, the sustain is when you command it. You MUST have some way of communicating with it, unless the creature is telepathic you're going to need to talk to it. And telepathy still typically requires a shared language.
It doesn't matter that sustain doesn't mention a verbal component, because it's not required to sustain the spell. It's required to command the creature that your magic has summoned.
You're correct that there are three categories.
1) For your command an animal companion you use the Command An Animal action. This allows you to issue it commands.
2) For your summons when you sustain you can issue it a command. This still requires communication.
3) For other things, you issue it a command as a verbal command action, which is a single action with auditory and concentrate traits.
Command an Animal action also has the auditory and concentrate traits.
Sustain has the concentrate trait. And while it doesn't mention an auditory trait, sustaining the summoning spell doesn't require you to command the summoned creature. It merely presents you to the opportunity to do so. If anything, the auditory trait probably needs to be added when you sustain for summoning spells, but this is more a rough edge of the trait system Paizo developed.
At the end of the day, you're not commanding a creature without communicating with it in some means. And the summoning magic entry is pretty explicit that you need to command it or else it just acts based on it's idea of your enemies.
A creature called by a conjuration spell or effect gains the summoned trait. A summoned creature can’t summon other creatures, create things of value, or cast spells that require a cost. It has the minion trait. If it tries to cast a spell of equal or higher level than the spell that summoned it, it overpowers the summoning magic, causing the summoned creature’s spell to fail and the summon spell to end. Otherwise, the summoned creature uses the standard abilities for a creature of its kind. It generally attacks your enemies to the best of its abilities. If you can communicate with it, you can attempt to command it, but the GM determines the degree to which it follows your commands.
Immediately when you finish Casting the Spell, the summoned creature uses its 2 actions for that turn. Summoned creatures can be banished by various spells and effects. They are automatically banished if reduced to 0 Hit Points or if the spell that called them ends.
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As for whether or not creatures are brought, PF1 was very explicit in that these weren't real creatures and they weren't brought from someplace else.
If they've changed that in PF2 it's actually a pretty big shift, but I don't have a specific reference rules quotes that specifies one way or the other.
And unfortunately what you quoted about conjuration magic isn't specific about summoning magic.
Personally, I wouldn't like a change in the tone of the game that summoning magic would have if it did use actual creatures.
I would argue that it would almost universally make summoning creatures evil since you're pulling them from wherever they are, whatever they're doing, and forcing them to fight until they...dis-corporate and return to their original place. But it makes no mention of if they remember it or if they keep inflicted wounds, etc.
It's a huge change if summonsed monsters aren't temporary creations of magic that aren't real creatures and instead are creatures stolen from elsewhere.
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In summary:
- You need to spend an action each turn to sustain the summoned creatures. They'll move and attack on their own after that.
- If you can talk to them, you can "get fancy" when you sustain them: ask them to attack a certain target, use a special ability they have, move to a specific location, etc.
As for whether or not creatures are brought, PF1 was very explicit in that these weren't real creatures and they weren't brought from someplace else.
If they've changed that in PF2 it's actually a pretty big shift, but I don't have a specific reference rules quotes that specifies one way or the other.
And unfortunately what you quoted about conjuration magic isn't specific about summoning magic.
Personally, I wouldn't like a change in the tone of the game that summoning magic would have if it did use actual creatures.
I would argue that it would almost universally make summoning creatures evil since you're pulling them from wherever they are, whatever they're doing, and forcing them to fight until they...dis-corporate and return to their original place. But it makes no mention of if they remember it or if they keep inflicted wounds, etc.
It's a huge change if summonsed monsters aren't temporary creations of magic that aren't real creatures and instead are creatures stolen from elsewhere.
Paizo has changed it.
James Jacobs (Mark?) wrote about the difference in a post about outsiders in the General PF2 Forum, if I recall.So no more Planescape jewels seeking out creatures for those darn prime material plane summoners! That irked a few extraplanar folk in an adventure or two. And for some interpretations, no getting to know your regularly summoned creatures.
As for commands, there are nonverbal ways to command to, like pointing at the target you want them to attack. I think it's just that they aren't telepathically linked, so more complex actions (especially casting specific spells in specific ways) would require PC guidance. This also implies mindless creatures ain't gonna do much other than brawl with the nearest enemy. What the summoned creature can deduce on their own is left up to the GM, though knowing which creatures you think are enemies seems a given.
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Paizo has changed it.
James Jacobs (Mark?) wrote about the difference in a post about outsiders in the General PF2 Forum, if I recall.
That sucks hugely and from an in world view point is awful.
Either the magic needs to make it clear that the creature doesn't remember the time they are summoned and doesn't keep any of the effects from combat, or else summoning is just hugely evil. Hell, even then taking their time when they're possibly doing something of importance would be incredibly awful as well.
This is an absolutely awful change.
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In summary:
- You need to spend an action each turn to sustain the summoned creatures. They'll move and attack on their own after that.
- If you can talk to them, you can "get fancy" when you sustain them: ask them to attack a certain target, use a special ability they have, move to a specific location, etc.
Well said summary.
Paizo has changed it.
James Jacobs (Mark?) wrote about the difference in a post about outsiders in the General PF2 Forum, if I recall.
That sucks hugely and from an in world view point is awful.
Either the magic needs to make it clear that the creature doesn't remember the time they are summoned and doesn't keep any of the effects from combat, or else summoning is just hugely evil. Hell, even then taking their time when they're possibly doing something of importance would be incredibly awful as well.
This is an absolutely awful change.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs431oz?On-killing-fiends#5
Fiends (demons included) work the same way in 2nd edition. Anything that's summoned exists only as long as the summoning effect lasts—they don't exist before or after the summon effect happens. We don't have specific tags for the difference between "summoned" and "called" in 2nd edition, so you pretty much just need to go by the "Is the word 'summon' used in the effect?" If so then it's summoned. If not, then it's not.
That's my take as creative director, at least. (And it's a topic I'm gonna push for us to explain more in print some day... just not sure when...)
That statement, especially the " Anything that's summoned exists only as long as the summoning effect lasts—they don't exist before or after the summon effect happens" part makes it clear that these beings are created solely for this spell and are not stolen from elsewhere.
In PF2 the word summon doesn't mean "summoned from somehwere" but rather seems to signify "it is a temporary creation".
That statement, especially the " Anything that's summoned exists only as long as the summoning effect lasts—they don't exist before or after the summon effect happens" part makes it clear that these beings are created solely for this spell and are not stolen from elsewhere.
In PF2 the word summon doesn't mean "summoned from somehwere" but rather seems to signify "it is a temporary creation".
Yes, I agree. I was unclear as to who was arguing which side, so I was just providing the actual words Mr. Jacobs used.
That makes a specific item in fall of plaguestone weird. Unless it's a copy of a specific creature....
That item involves Planar Ally, a Spell which never uses the word Summon. It's different.
That makes a specific item in fall of plaguestone weird. Unless it's a copy of a specific creature....That item involves Planar Ally, a Spell which never uses the word Summon. It's different.
Yeah, it's consistent with how things worked in PF1.
Summoning spells weren't real creatures. But other conjuration magic could summon the actual creatures, such as gate or planar ally.
But those spells also worked differently in PF1 because you had no control over the creatures. Planar Ally was pretty safe because you were summoning a friend of your god that gave you the spell, but that didn't mean they were going to do exactly what you wanted.