...Appart from specific builds...Way to say the specific build you are citing is somehow less specific a build than the one I mentioned. Really makes your points seem well thought out.
Demonstrating that the 'classic' spell-lobber sort of caster doesn't have a use for shocking grasp, which is what you have actually done, and demonstrating that shocking grasp shouldn't be considered a 2-action spell are completely different things.
Well, I don't want to enter such a discussion. You can consider Shocking Grasp a 2-action spell with a ridiculous range as it's precisely what it is. I was using a third action for Stride/Reach as it is a classical way to handle the ridiculous range.
Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that whatever the way you look at Shocking Grasp it is nowhere close to competitive compared to Magic Missile. And that's the case for a lot of first level spells. 1st level is very badly balanced. Things get better at other levels, but at 1st level, it's bad.
Meanwhile shocking grasp has huge damage potential, higher average damage per action than magic missile, and a special trait that is both fairly powerful and fairly commonly applicable.
I would completely agree with you if this was true. Unfortunately, it isn't.
From Citricking's tool (the closest we have from a "fact"):
Against an enemy 2 levels higher than you (High AC as it's the most common one), 2-action Magic Missile does more damage than Shocking Grasp and equivalent damage if the enemy is Flat-Footed. You need the enemy to be also iron clad for Shocking Grasp to start shining.
Against a level -1 enemy, Shocking Grasp scores lots of overkill. Even against a level 0 enemy, Shocking Grasp scores easily some overkill (especially if it crits). As we are speaking of level 1-2, it removes all the extra damage potential of facing low AC enemies.
3-action Magic Missile outdamages Shocking Grasp against same level enemies, even if the enemy is iron clad.
So, when does Shocking Grasp "has huge damage potential, higher average damage per action than magic missile"?
Only if you start your turn next to an iron clad enemy of your level and you don't have 3 action to cast Magic Missile. To sum up: nearly never.
Shocking Grasp doesn't have a huge damage potential and doesn't have a higher average damage per action compared to Magic Missile. And after taking that into account, you can look at its other drawbacks.
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I think it may be worth starting another thread, either one specific to shocking grasp or a more general analysis of which 1st level spells are good/bad, to prevent this one from derailing.
So, when does Shocking Grasp "has huge damage potential, higher average damage per action than magic missile"?Against a straight-out-the-Bestiary orc warrior is one such time.
A 3-action magic missile will do 3d4+3 to this enemy, for a range of 6-15 with an average of 10.5, and a 0% chance to take out all 23 of the critter's HP in one go.
While shocking grasp, if it hits, will do 2d12 (possibly doubled) and a persistent 1d4, which gives a range of 2-24 (possibly doubled) and 1-4 repeating for some number of rounds. Yes, with accuracy factored in the initial hit's average damage is only 7.8, but the persistent averages 2.5 so as long as it lasts at least 2 rounds it's more damage from one spell than the magic missile - plus putting that persistent on (thanks for wearing a breastplate, orc friend) might sap away some actions since the persistent damage is likely to stick around a while if nothing is done to increase the odds of getting rid of it. And there's actually a roughly 4% chance that this one casting of a spell takes out the 23 HP orc all-in-one.
Having to take out an orc in one round or lose is a very niche situation though… usually there's a party, and magic missile will help the party overcome the encounter more often in the vast majority of situations, that's why bidi is saying it's a bad idea to prepare shocking grasp…
If a wizard is standing next to (or within 30 feet of) an orc warrior, their best bet is to GTFO, not hit it with shocking grasp.
Having to take out an orc in one round or lose is a very niche situation though… usually there's a party, and magic missile will help the party overcome the encounter more often in the vast majority of situations, that's why bidi is saying it's a bad idea to prepare shocking grasp…...who said anything about having to take an orc out in one round "or lose"?! It sure wasn't me. I just mentioned the possibility and pointed out that magic missile doesn't have it.
And we cannot, and I mean that literally - it's demonstrably impossible - quantify what is or is not "the vast majority of situations."
What we can do is identify that both spells have situations in which they shine, and identify that those situations are both probably going to come up during a campaign naturally and are also able to be engineered by the way the player chooses to play.
If you don't need to take out the orc on your turn, then magic missile will help more in that situation.
Having to take out an orc in one round or lose is a very niche situation though… usually there's a party, and magic missile will help the party overcome the encounter more often in the vast majority of situations, that's why bidi is saying it's a bad idea to prepare shocking grasp…...who said anything about having to take an orc out in one round "or lose"?! It sure wasn't me. I just mentioned the possibility and pointed out that magic missile doesn't have it.
And we cannot, and I mean that literally - it's demonstrably impossible - quantify what is or is not "the vast majority of situations."
What we can do is identify that both spells have situations in which they shine, and identify that those situations are both probably going to come up during a campaign naturally and are also able to be engineered by the way the player chooses to play.
So, Magic Missile shines more than Shocking Grasp:
- Against a boss.- At long range.
- If I don't start next to the enemy I want to target.
- Against incorporeal undeads.
- Against low hit points enemies.
- When you have only one action.
- When you don't have much to do with your third action.
- When the enemy is resistant to lightning damage.
- When the enemy has attack of opportunity.
- If the enemy doesn't have a metal armor.
- If I don't want to end my turn next to an enemy.
Shocking Grasp shines more than Magic Missile:
- When the enemy cast Shield.
- When the enemy has a crappy AC and a bunch of hit points.
- When the enemy is resistant to force damage.
- When you have to take out an orc warrior in one round.
I can't quantify the "vast majority of situations" but I can say Shocking Grasp shines in situation I just don't care about at all.
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So anyway, snowball....
...I can say Shocking Grasp shines in situation I just don't care about at all.If that were what you had originally said - that you don't like the spell - rather than inaccurately stating your opinion as a fact, we wouldn't have just had this whole discussion.
Well, I was just answering with a little bit of sarcasm to your post stating roughly that "it is absolutely impossible to compare 2 spells unless they do exactly the same thing".
And I don't want to say that I don't like Shocking Grasp but that Magic Missile is so much a better choice that there's not much point in preparing Shocking Grasp at all.
Now, we can agree to disagree if we have given all our arguments (I have).
your post stating roughly that "it is absolutely impossible to compare 2 spells unless they do exactly the same thing"....that's not, roughly or otherwise, anywhere near anything I've ever said.
"And we cannot, and I mean that literally - it's demonstrably impossible - quantify what is or is not "the vast majority of situations.""
Your words. Basically, as soon as you find one case where one spell is better than another one there is no way to compare them as we can't quantify what is or is not a common situation.
It's like stating that Snowball is not worse than Chilling Spray because it has a higher range and as such there are situations where you can use it and can't use Chilling Spray. Still, as you can see in this discussion, people agree that Snowball is worse than Chilling Spray.
Stating an opinion as a fact makes that statement incorrect.
Humans don't have access to THE truth and as such we can't state facts. If I tell you that the president of the USA is Barrack Obama I feel like I'm stating a fact. I'm wrong, but I still think I state a fact.
If I say that Shocking Grasp is not worth preparing, I think I'm stating a fact. I may be wrong, but I still state a fact from my point of view.
Now, I can tell you I far prefer spontaneous casters. That's a pure opinion and I don't think we gonna have any debate around my opinions. Debates exist only around facts or at least what people think are facts (because, as stated above, noone has access to the truth).
I'm not sure this discussion has anything to do with the subject, but the subject seems long dead to me, so I take the full responsibility of derailing it definitely.
Your words.Yes, and my words don't mean the thing you earlier claimed they did.
You're saying I said we can't compare spells within a particular situation and determine which one is a better choice in that situation.
The reality is that I said we can't say which particular situations actually happen more often that others across the whole of the hobby.
It's the "vast majority" part I was talking about.
If I say that Shocking Grasp is not worth preparing, I think I'm stating a fact. I may be wrong, but I still state a fact from my point of view.Correct, and also exactly what I already said.
The issue is that when you think you are stating a fact and you are wrong, then I - not being able to read your mind, and thus only knowing what you actually typed out and not that you meant to be stating only your opinion - think the discussion we are having is to demonstrate how you are wrong. But then it turns into a kind of bait-and-switch situation because you dangled "this is a fact" and when I bit with "no it's not," you swap over to "this is my opinion."
If you just stated your opinion as an opinion in the first place, I wouldn't have made any posts on the topic because everyone is entitled to their own opinions - just not their own facts.
I think you're missing his point.
I might be, citricking, but I'm also certain that up to this point he's been missing mine.
Everytime we state an argument, our MAP (Multiple Argument Penalty) increases by -5 and unlike MAP (Multiple Attack Penalty) there is no minimum to Argument Penalty. So, right now, we are at -50 and we are missing all the time.
I think it's an accurate description of debates over the Internet...
Let's drop it. I'm not sure it will bring us anywhere anyway.
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Sometimes you just gotta end the turn...
Anyway, on the topic of the merits (or lack thereof) of Snowball, you can heighten it to great effect. Not because it's good to do so... 1st level Snowball is terrible, 10th level snowball is such a joke I don't even know where to begin. If you manage to down a powerful lich with a 10th level snowball, they basically have to retire as a villain - they are done for.