I was looking at these two spells and they are nearly identical except it seems, to me, that Snowball is just worse.
PFS Standard Snowball Spell 1
Attack Cold Evocation Water
Source World Guide pg. 112
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You throw a magically propelled and chilled ball of dense snow. The target takes 2d4 cold damage and potentially other effects, depending on the result of your spell attack roll.Critical Success The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Failure No effect.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4
PFS Standard Chilling Spray Spell 1
Cold Evocation
Source Gods & Magic pg. 107
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Area 15-foot cone
Saving Throw Will
A cone of icy shards bursts from your spread hands and coats the target in a layer of frost. You deal 2d4 cold damage to creatures in the area; they must each attempt a Reflex save.Critical Success The creature takes no damage.
Success The creature takes half damage.
Failure The creature takes full damage and takes a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 2 rounds.
Critical Failure The creature takes double damage and takes a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 2 rounds.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4.
I mean other than Chilling Spray targeting Ref saves (which is arguably the hardest save to hit) it can target multiple opponents and it's penalties are for 2 rounds instead of 1. It's damage scales the same as Snowball and Snowball only has a 30 ft range, which never gets better. I can't for the life of me see why someone would want to use Snowball over Chilling Spray.
What do you guys think?
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Having a 30 foot range vs a 15 is a BIG difference.
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One targets Armor Class via a Spell Attack, the other is an automatic hit with a Will Save instead.
This is actually an example of what I view as GREAT spell design in that you have the opportunity to decide which is best for you depending on if the creature might be Higher AC with lower Will Save or vice versa. Plus the one offering a saving throw can impact multiple opponents while the other cannot.
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One targets Armor Class via a Spell Attack, the other is an automatic hit with a Will Save instead.
I wouldn't get too attached to that "Will" save. It's an obvious typo that I predict will get fixed in the next errata document, whenever it comes out.
Having a 30 foot range vs a 15 is a BIG difference.
Yeah you have to practically be on top of enemies for a 15ft cone to hit, while 30ft is a decent range to operate from and avoid being an easy target.
Another consideration is that you can use things like true strike or RAW Hero Points to enhance snowball's chances of success. Plus other things that affect attack rolls (guidance, flat-footed, Inspire Courage, etc.).
As others have said.
Longer range, and wayyyyyyy easier to adjust atk up via various sources than to adjust saves down.
15ft puts you in the danger zone even with the movement debuff and means you might hit allies, 30ft is roughly two actions out for most humanoids.
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While I agree that snowball has its advantages I also agree with the original poster that chilling spray is basically the better spell.
Multiple targets and an effect on a miss makes up for a lot. If I'm a squishy trying to stay out of combat I really want considerably MORE range than 30 feet. Not to mention the REAL reason that one uses low level area of effect spells, swarms :-).
I think that snowball is definitely underpowered. Its arguably less powerful than ray of frost at first level (does less damage but has a rider). At second level it still isn't clear due to the lack of range and is pretty much worse than acid arrow.
I don't think that I'd ever spend a spell slot on snowball unless it was for thematic reasons (and even then I'd prefer Ray of Frost much of the time).
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While I agree that snowball has its advantages I also agree with the original poster that chilling spray is basically the better spell.
Multiple targets and an effect on a miss makes up for a lot. If I'm a squishy trying to stay out of combat I really want considerably MORE range than 30 feet. Not to mention the REAL reason that one uses low level area of effect spells, swarms :-).
I think that snowball is definitely underpowered. Its arguably less powerful than ray of frost at first level (does less damage but has a rider). At second level it still isn't clear due to the lack of range and is pretty much worse than acid arrow.
I don't think that I'd ever spend a spell slot on snowball unless it was for thematic reasons (and even then I'd prefer Ray of Frost much of the time).
Bringing up Ray of Frost actually proves my point even more so. Ray of Frost is better than Snowball as well and it does almost the same thing.
Ray of Frost does the same amount of damage roughly every spell level until around 4th and by then there are MUCH better spells then Snowball. Plus Ray of Frost has 120ft range AND the Crit Success is the exact same as Snowball. And to top it all off it's a Cantrip.
Snowball is def underpowered and should be fixed. I say it should do at least 2d8 and be almost comparable with Hydraulic Push, which does 3d6.
One targets Armor Class via a Spell Attack, the other is an automatic hit with a Will Save instead.I wouldn't get too attached to that "Will" save. It's an obvious typo that I predict will get fixed in the next errata document, whenever it comes out.
It's most likely supposed to be a Reflex save like Burning Hands, still save vs AC though.
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It's most likely supposed to be a Reflex save like Burning Hands, still save vs AC though.
I wish errata documents weren't as tied to reprints. Especially for books like the bestiaries and adventure paths.
Saving Throw: WillYou deal 2d4 cold damage to creatures in the area; they must each attempt a Reflex save.So: "freeze" or "brain freeze"!?
I wouldn't mind seeing it be a fort save.
Bringing up Ray of Frost actually proves my point even more so. Ray of Frost is better than Snowball as well and it does almost the same thing.
Ray of Frost does the same amount of damage roughly every spell level until around 4th and by then there are MUCH better spells then Snowball. Plus Ray of Frost has 120ft range AND the Crit Success is the exact same as Snowball. And to top it all off it's a Cantrip.
Snowball is def underpowered and should be fixed. I say it should do at least 2d8 and be almost comparable with Hydraulic Push, which does 3d6.
Ray of Frost is 1d4 plus 1d4(per +1 heightening). That's half of what Snowball does; 2d4 plus 2d4 (per +1 heightening).
Ray of Frost only slows movement on a critical success, and by the same amount as Snowball's success.
So, I'm less convinced that Ray of Frost is strictly-better than Snowball (but it does out-range it, but I think this falls into the "apparently combat spells are 30 foot range now" with weird exceptions).
Bringing up Ray of Frost actually proves my point even more so. Ray of Frost is better than Snowball as well and it does almost the same thing.
Ray of Frost does the same amount of damage roughly every spell level until around 4th and by then there are MUCH better spells then Snowball. Plus Ray of Frost has 120ft range AND the Crit Success is the exact same as Snowball. And to top it all off it's a Cantrip.
Snowball is def underpowered and should be fixed. I say it should do at least 2d8 and be almost comparable with Hydraulic Push, which does 3d6.
Ray of Frost is 1d4 plus 1d4(per +1 heightening). That's half of what Snowball does; 2d4 plus 2d4 (per +1 heightening).
Ray of Frost only slows movement on a critical success, and by the same amount as Snowball's success.
So, I'm less convinced that Ray of Frost is strictly-better than Snowball (but it does out-range it, but I think this falls into the "apparently combat spells are 30 foot range now" with weird exceptions).
Snowball and Ray of Frost have the same Crit Success effect. Plus, as Evilgm said, Ray of Frost does 1d4+mod so it does relatively the same amount of damage until higher levels.
Plus the fact that Ray of Frost is a CANTRIP makes it blow Snowball out of the water. A Cantrip should not be the same, or better, then a leveled spell.
I do agree at the end of the day that Snowball is just not that good, especially when you have the options of Chilling Spray and Ray of Frost as options which are both better and each covers almost all of the specific niches of Snowball that would make it situationally more useful than either one individually.
Snowball does have very specific advantages over both Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray, but most are so specific and unlikely and better covered by all sorts of other spells (again, especially each other) that it sort of makes Snowball pointless.
IMO you can do one of two things to potentially make Snowball "better". You could either up the damage by a certain amount, make it do 2d6 damage instead of 2d4, which I don't think would make it better than other level 1 spells. Comparing it to Grim Tendrils and Burning Hands, for example, it seems like 2d6 is the damage for a level 1 spell with no rider and 2d4 is the damage for a spell with a rider. But both of these spells are AOEs that can hit multiple enemies, AND target saves which are much more likely to do damage in general. For a spell attack that can only hit one enemy and still has a pretty short range, I don't think that 2d6 and a pretty minor rider is a problem.
The other possible solution is to make the rider better. 5 feet of reduced speed on a hit is fine, and increasing it to 10 on just a regular hit would probably be too much. I would cause Snowball to knock the target prone on a crit however, which would give it an advantage to use over the other two, giving it a higher reward but one that only procs occasionally. That might be too big of a boost however, so I am inclined to prefer the 2d6 damage fix.
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After considering the spells and reading the thread, I decided to both increase Snowball's range to 60' and the damage to 2d8 (values between 2-16), with each additional spell level adding another 2d8. This compares pretty well to Hydraulic Push's 60' range, 3d6 (values 3-18) damage, doing slightly less damage on average and slowing by 5-10' instead of pushing foes back 5-10', but scaling slightly better with +2d8 per level instead of +2d6/level. So, cast at 2nd lvl they are pretty even at 4d8 (4-32) and 5d6 (5-30), and Snowball pulling a bit ahead on average damage at higher levels, but lacking the ability to push a target into dangerous/difficult environmental situations, so I think it's a fair trade off, since many casters may never choose to use a Heightened version anyway.
I think this change serves to showcase the differences between Snowball and Chilling Spray beyond just the attack roll vs saving throw, with Snowball doing more average damage to a single target from further away, and Chilling Spray able to damage multiple targets at close range (including half damage on a successful save) and slowing them for a longer time (2 rounds instead of just 1 round).
Snowball and Ray of Frost have the same Crit Success effect.
Ray of Frost:
Critical Success The target takes double damage and takes a
–10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Snowball:
Critical Success The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
I will admit I had trouble comparing them earlier and misread one of them and thought that Snowball's success was Ray of Frost's crit-success. But Snowball still has a Success entry that will occur more often.
1d4+4, as Ray of Frost also adds you spellcasting ability modifier.
You're right, it does. And I wasn't intentionally ignoring it, but I didn't properly include it in the comparison. At first level its equivalent to adding a second d4 that always rolls a 4 (so, strictly better) but at heightening levels it diminishes in importance...but that's less relevant for leveled spells.
Most first level spells are worst than cantrips. Snowball is not as good as Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray is not as good as Electric Arc.
It is a bit sad, but at first levels, there are only 4 spells (roughly) worth casting: Magic Missile, Magic Weapon/Fang, Heal.
Most first level spells are worst than cantrips. Snowball is not as good as Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray is not as good as Electric Arc.
It is a bit sad, but at first levels, there are only 4 spells (roughly) worth casting: Magic Missile, Magic Weapon/Fang, Heal.
I think also illusory object is worth casting.
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I think also illusory object is worth casting.Most first level spells are worst than cantrips. Snowball is not as good as Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray is not as good as Electric Arc.
It is a bit sad, but at first levels, there are only 4 spells (roughly) worth casting: Magic Missile, Magic Weapon/Fang, Heal.
As is Shillelagh (which is another magic weapon clone), Fear and Shocking Grasp (it does a lot of damage at the first levels but is very risky).
At higher levels Fleet Step, Jump, Lock and True Strike are all good uses of a 1st slot.
Most first level spells are worst than cantrips. Snowball is not as good as Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray is not as good as Electric Arc.
It is a bit sad, but at first levels, there are only 4 spells (roughly) worth casting: Magic Missile, Magic Weapon/Fang, Heal.
I strongly disagree with this.
Electric Arc is not the best comparison as almost everyone agrees that it is over-powered compared to other Cantrips, but even considering it, I'd say Hydraulic Push is better against a single enemy, and arguably better against multiple enemies (though perhaps not enough to justify being a limited resource). Shocking Grasp is also significantly better if you have Reach Spell or for any Martial who gets spells via Multiclass Archetype.
Fear is also good, as is Grease. I'm going to assume you're only considering combat spells, but if you expand to any spells then Charm can get some great use, as can Sleep and Pest Form.
I think also illusory object is worth casting.Most first level spells are worst than cantrips. Snowball is not as good as Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray is not as good as Electric Arc.
It is a bit sad, but at first levels, there are only 4 spells (roughly) worth casting: Magic Missile, Magic Weapon/Fang, Heal.As is Shillelagh (which is another magic weapon clone), Fear and Shocking Grasp (it does a lot of damage at the first levels but is very risky).
At higher levels Fleet Step, Jump, Lock and True Strike are all good uses of a 1st slot.
Just did a calculation: the expected added damage from fear when a d8 weapon fighter and a d12 weapon dragon barbarian take two strikes on the target is approximately equal to the expected damage from telekinetic projectile across all levels.
I was speaking of combat spells at low levels. Of course, True Strike and Jump are very good use of a first level spell slot at higher level. But at low level, the good spells are extremely few.
Shocking Grasp does less damage than Magic Missile when taken hit chances into account.
Hydraulic Push also does less damage.
So Magic Missile all the way.
Compared to cantrips, Electric Arc does the same damage than Shocking Grasp and more than Hydraulic Push if you manage to target 2 enemies.
For Illusory Object, I really dislike the way some people are using it (AoE save or do nothing which is obviously completely overpowered). The issue with illusion spells is that they're very DM dependent. So, I prefer not to mention it.
I'm not sure my list is complete, but there are extremely few efficient offensive first level spells. And neither Snowball nor Chilling Spray are one of them.
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Just did a calculation: the expected added damage from fear when a d8 weapon fighter and a d12 weapon dragon barbarian take two strikes on the target is approximately equal to the expected damage from telekinetic projectile across all levels.
Given that fear also affects attack rolls and saving throws that sounds reasonable to me.
It's not all about damage
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Most first level spells are worst than cantrips. Snowball is not as good as Ray of Frost and Chilling Spray is not as good as Electric Arc.
It is a bit sad, but at first levels, there are only 4 spells (roughly) worth casting: Magic Missile, Magic Weapon/Fang, Heal.I strongly disagree with this.
Agreed. There are lots of good first level spells.
They just tend to not be blasting spells. By design, magic users are NOT expected to dominate in single target damage. Personally, I think that is a GOOD thing.
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I was speaking of combat spells at low levels. Of course, True Strike and Jump are very good use of a first level spell slot at higher level. But at low level, the good spells are extremely few.
Shocking Grasp does less damage than Magic Missile when taken hit chances into account.
Hydraulic Push also does less damage.
So Magic Missile all the way.
I've never liked the idea that because Magic Missile's average damage is higher because of it's 100% hit rate, therefore it is the best attacking spell and the only one worth using.
First off, it isn't necessarily true. Yeah, MM is more consistent than HP or SG, but only in a vacuum. Throw Flat-footed, some Fear, some Clumsy on your enemies and suddenly SG and HP start coming out quite a bit ahead. Against low AC enemies, they can even be better without that. Against a basic Zombie, your level 1 Wizard/Sorc only needs a 5 to hit with those spells, and they can both crit on a 15, which makes them a lot better than MM. Those debuffs mentioned earlier makes everything else behave more or less like Zombies too.
Plus, sometimes you just NEED the higher damage potential. If you absolutely, positively require 10 damage done to that baddie and you only have 2 actions to do it, then odds are very good that you'll want Shocking Grasp or Hydraulic Push even if you are at a 50% chance to miss.
Compared to cantrips, Electric Arc does the same damage than Shocking Grasp and more than Hydraulic Push if you manage to target 2 enemies.
But both of them target a single enemy, and even if you're up against multiple enemies, being able to focus down more damage on one is generally more efficient, which is why I said HP is arguably still better than EA even if you're facing multiple opponents. Does less total damage, sure, but if both of them can take out two enemies in two turns, but HP takes out one enemy per turn and EA leaves both standing in the in-between, then HP is the much better choice.
And neither Snowball nor Chilling Spray are one of them.
This I agree with, but not every spell or choice has to be "optimal" in order to be worth taking. Maybe I want to pick a Cold Damaging spell because it fits my character idea. But even though not every spell needs to be optimal, they should all at least have their specific niche that makes them distinct. Snowball's problem is that it is just entirely superfluous compared to Chilling Spray and the one very tiny advantage that it has, Ray of Frost has better. This makes Snowball as a spell just sort of sad...
Against low AC enemies, they can even be better without that. Against a basic Zombie, your level 1 Wizard/Sorc only needs a 5 to hit with those spells, and they can both crit on a 15, which makes them a lot better than MM.
Not at all. If you hit on a 6, Hydraulic Push now does the same amount of damage than Magic Missile on average, but with a lower range and a worse damage type. So, hitting on a 5 doesn't make it a lot better than MM, actually, it's not even better. There is no reason to prepare Hydraulic Push over Magic Missile if all you look at is damage.
Plus, sometimes you just NEED the higher damage potential.
No, you never NEED to cast a bad spell over a good one. This kind of reasoning is why I see so many weakling Wizards with Shocking Grasp or Hydraulic Push prepared. The fact that a spell can be better than another one 1% of the time doesn't make it a good pick (unless you can prepare 100 spells).
But both of them target a single enemy, and even if you're up against multiple enemies, being able to focus down more damage on one is generally more efficient, which is why I said HP is arguably still better than EA even if you're facing multiple opponents.
Electric Arc does 65-75% of Hydraulic Push damage on each target at level 1-2. It is hard to justify using Hydraulic Push over Electric Arc considering it costs a spell slot...
I've never liked the idea that because Magic Missile's average damage is higher because of it's 100% hit rate, therefore it is the best attacking spell and the only one worth using.
Me too, I would have prefered all spells to be equal. But these are the rules.
Shattering Gem is too weak. 5 points of damage prevented + 1d8 damage with a Basic Reflex save is far from awesome. Especially when you consider that you have to cast it beforehand at a range of touch and target the ally who will be attacked.
And then, you remember that there's a DC11 flat check and you just drop the spell and take something more reliable.
As a side note, I forgot Soothe. Despite being way worse than Heal, it is still very valid to cast it.
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Shattering gem has a duration of a minute so if you cast it on the tank over the course of a fight chances of it going off are very high.
The bottom line of all this is that some spells are less good than others. Snowball is one of them, though there are still many amazing 1st level spells.
...from a game design perspective, I know this isn't ideal but... I kinda love the fact that Snowball is worthless. Makes me imagine the spell is just conjuring and chucking a mostly normal snowball at people.
...from a game design perspective, I know this isn't ideal but... I kinda love the fact that Snowball is worthless. Makes me imagine the spell is just conjuring and chucking a mostly normal snowball at people.
I don't think its completely useless. Certainly not amazing, but might be worth a 2nd level spell slot until you get 3rds (as it scales better than Ray of Frost, 4d4 vs 2d4+4 is just slightly in Snowball's favor) and there aren't a whole lot of evocation spells available at 2nd (Flaming Sphere and Acid Arrow). It doesn't compare favorably against those other two (3d6-sustained and 3d8+1d6p), but it's not so out-classed as to be worthless (particularly if you're looking to deal cold damage at 120 feet).
At 3rd, its even almost comparable to Chilling Darkness (albeit that one's a divine spell) just looking at non-conditional damage, though Lightning Bolt, Paralyze, and Slow are much much better choices broadly speaking.
Snowball also is more consistent in its speed debuffing which with three actions is a pretty solid speed debuff. It's not great but its not useless and you can have fun throwing snowballs at people.
Is that comparing 2 action MM it 3 action MM bidi?
3-action MM.
Snowball also is more consistent in its speed debuffing which with three actions is a pretty solid speed debuff. It's not great but its not useless and you can have fun throwing snowballs at people.
Indeed! It isn't until 3rd that Slow becomes available (which is definitely more powerful than a 10 foot reduction, generally).
Entangle does exist at 2nd, but requires nearby plant life, and doesn't deal damage (and its speed penalty is comparable).
Web does exist at 2nd, but also allows for Athletics and has AC/HP,and doesn't deal damage (and its speed penalty is comparable).
Every other speed reduction effect is higher level.
but it's not so out-classed as to be worthless (particularly if you're looking to deal cold damage at 120 feet).
Snowball only has a 30 foot range, sadly. It’s Ray of Frost with 120.
but it's not so out-classed as to be worthless (particularly if you're looking to deal cold damage at 120 feet).Snowball only has a 30 foot range, sadly. It’s Ray of Frost with 120.
Touche, I misremembered the range and didn't check.
Is that comparing 2 action MM it 3 action MM bidi?3-action MM.
Why would we compare a 3 action MM to the two action Hydraulic Push/Shocking Grasp?
If they're equal, shouldn't that come out in favour of Push because it's.... one less action?
Shocking Grasp can't be considered a 2-action spell. Most of the time you'll use it with Reach Metamagic or a Stride to go to melee range.
Anyway, Magic Missile is absolutely awesome against high AC enemies, namely bosses. If you ever face a boss, your party will thank you if your spell list is full of MMs.
Against average AC enemies, MM is still a clear winner against Shocking Grasp and Hydraulic Push.
Against low AC enemies, you will just let the martials do their job. Using your limited resources on an enemy you hit on a 5 (and that martials hit on a 2-4) is just a bad idea.
Are there realistic situations where Shocking Grasp or Hydraulic Push will be better? Certainly.
Is there a reason to prepare Shocking Grasp or Hydraulic Push over Magic Missile? Definitely not.
Shocking Grasp can't be considered a 2-action spell. Most of the time you'll use it with Reach Metamagic or a Stride to go to melee range....so do you apply that same logic to all melee-range attacks, or are you being inconsistent while discounting the viability of a spellcaster favoring close-quarters combat?
I don't follow you.
I'm just saying that you rarely start your turn next to an enemy. Even when you're playing a melee character it won't happen that often. So a touch spell will often force you to use one extra action to get to melee range.
I don't follow you.You said "shocking grasp can't be considered a 2-action spell." and the reason you gave to support that statement would apply equally to the statement "Strike with a melee can't be considered a single action."
Well, first, that is quite true. The first Strike of a round is not often a single action. That's a very common argument I use against those who think that "martials have 3 actions per turn". Actually, they very often have only 2 choices per turn as their first Strike cost them 2 actions.
I was meaning to point that out in a way that highlighted the illogical nature of assuming specifics of when a spell is cast instead of generalities and then making a general claim - shocking grasp absolutely can, and in fact must, be considered a 2-action spell because what that 3rd action is can and will vary dependent on circumstances, where with an actual 3-action spell there would be no variance.
For me, that's the beginning of a fallacy. I think it's easier to visualize Shocking Grasp as a full round spell as you'll most of the time need 3 actions to cast it than a 2-action spell with a very strong implication on your third action. Appart from specific builds, you'll need to Stride or use Reach metamagic more often than not.
And anyway, it doesn't change my point.
Magic Missile does more damage than Shocking Grasp in classical situations, has a higher range, a better energy type and you can split damage amongst multiple enemies (and get more bonuses out of damage bonuses). Shocking Grasp deals a bit more damage against metal wearing enemies but it doesn't even put it on par with Magic Missile in that case and it's a 2-action spell but with a range so ridiculous that you'll very rarely be able to capitalize on that. I don't prepare weak spells so I don't prepare Shocking Grasp with a Wizard.
Ergo:
Stationary Wizard
Mobile Fighter
And some of us don't like that comparison.
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Shattering gem is great because it's an extra layer of damage mitigation that stacks with everything else.
High AC and saves? Check.
Damage resistance? Check.
Temporary HP? Check.
Shattering Gem? Check.
Reactionary healing/mitigation? Check.
Just keep stacking on those layers of defense and you can very quickly have a character that can't easily be kept down.
Remember, its not about the bonus types anymore, but about the layers of abilities you can put towards a single purpose.
To me at least, the "purpose" of Snowball is pure disrespect. To me, it's the equivalent of using a "joke character" in a fighting game. Being defeated by Snowball would make you a laughing stock amongst wizards.
Bad range, abysmal damage (lower than most cantrips at 1st level), spell attack. The only possible upside is the -5 movement speed on a hit, and that's the only actual advantage it has over it's cantrip counterpart. And if you really just have to limit a creature's movements at 1st level... just use grease.
While I could continue much of this discussion that is currently happening. I am pretty sure most of it is no longer discussing snowball vs chilling spray... Perhaps a new thread to compare 1st level spells in general, is in order?
I think you're right lol.