Have any First Nations people made an issue of this or are people outside of the Tribe complaining about it?
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Have any First Nations people made an issue of this or are people outside of the Tribe complaining about it?
On the Wendigo issue, it’s purely people outside of the Tribes b&~@~ing about it. The walker issue on the other hand is something all of the First Nation tribes are incredibly leery of anyone ever talking about or using. Look up Jim Butcher’s story about the research and approval he had to do for his story involving it. The People do not take that thing lightly.
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I have served on Social Studies Curriculum committees with Dine and Pueblo educators. They are very quick to mention when something is out of bounds.
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Quasi related:
I find it fascinating how universal certain stories are. Tales about a thing that should not be named is a common trope used throughout numerous disparate cultures. As is the fact that people of said culture all know the name that they are not supposed to say, meaning someone had to have told them at some point.
We like to look at old folktales and superstitions and think that everyone used to believe these things way back when, but that's not very accurate. Skepticism and nonconformity aren't exactly modern inventions. We were just arguing over a campfire back then instead of on the internet.
fun fact! The root word Bear just means brown, it was believed actually naming the beast would summon its fury.
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I love Werewolf The Apocalypse.
I am now concerned.
WtA is a great game, but a product of its time (the 90s), and has always had some problematic depictions of a variety of things.
You seem to be equating people with their beliefs. I do not do that. I can absolutely not respect a belief system based on its tenets, but respect a holder of that belief based simply on their humanity. Beliefs can be changed, one's humanity cannot. Some religious circles would couch this as a "hate the sin not the sinner" attitude, though that has certain implications I do not necessarily agree with, I use it as a common example only.It's pretty disrespectful of people to disrespect their religion. So if people deserve respect, definitionally so does their religion.And the notion of majority belief is so dependent on location. Really all religions deserve equal respect.Beliefs don't deserve respect. People do.
Respect and disrespect are antonyms, which is to say opposites, and both differ from a neutral attitude significantly. One can not particularly respect a particular belief without actively disrespecting it, after all. That's pretty normal, really. Disrespect generally goes a step beyond that, there's a reason it's a verb as well as a noun after all.
My post was specific to such actual, active, disrespect regarding beliefs. Which is, in fact, generally indicative that you don't respect the person holding the belief, since you just went out of your way to disrespect something they care about.
But unlike disrespect, respect is often used in an entirely passive sense. Respecting someone's personal space is not about actively venerating it, it's about not invading it. Likewise, respecting someone's religious beliefs is not necessarily about catering to them or believing them right, it's about not interfering with them or bothering the person about them.
Have any First Nations people made an issue of this or are people outside of the Tribe complaining about it?On the Wendigo issue, it’s purely people outside of the Tribes b!#@@ing about it. The walker issue on the other hand is something all of the First Nation tribes are incredibly leery of anyone ever talking about or using. Look up Jim Butcher’s story about the research and approval he had to do for his story involving it. The People do not take that thing lightly.
intriguing.
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Not quite the word I would use. Frightening would be a better descriptor. As far as I know, pretty much every tribe has stories about them, and they all boil down to one thing: These things are about as purely evil and malevolent as anything you can find outside of the Abrahamic demons. I’m a quarter Cherokee, so I’ve had the privilege of listening to the storytellers, and even they don’t want to talk about these things. They have to, to keep the warnings and knowledge of them alive, but it makes them visibly uncomfortable to do.
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Not quite the word I would use. Frightening would be a better descriptor. As far as I know, pretty much every tribe has stories about them, and they all boil down to one thing: These things are about as purely evil and malevolent as anything you can find outside of the Abrahamic demons. I’m a quarter Cherokee, so I’ve had the privilege of listening to the storytellers, and even they don’t want to talk about these things. They have to, to keep the warnings and knowledge of them alive, but it makes them visibly uncomfortable to do.
The Pueblo people that I went to school with are very very careful about what they share or do not share with people not of the pueblo.
Not quite the word I would use. Frightening would be a better descriptor. As far as I know, pretty much every tribe has stories about them, and they all boil down to one thing: These things are about as purely evil and malevolent as anything you can find outside of the Abrahamic demons. I’m a quarter Cherokee, so I’ve had the privilege of listening to the storytellers, and even they don’t want to talk about these things. They have to, to keep the warnings and knowledge of them alive, but it makes them visibly uncomfortable to do.The Pueblo people that I went to school with are very very careful about what they share or do not share with people not of the pueblo.
As they should be. Honestly, that’s as much as I’m willing to talk about the subject.
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As they should be. Honestly, that’s as much as I’m willing to talk about the subject.Not quite the word I would use. Frightening would be a better descriptor. As far as I know, pretty much every tribe has stories about them, and they all boil down to one thing: These things are about as purely evil and malevolent as anything you can find outside of the Abrahamic demons. I’m a quarter Cherokee, so I’ve had the privilege of listening to the storytellers, and even they don’t want to talk about these things. They have to, to keep the warnings and knowledge of them alive, but it makes them visibly uncomfortable to do.The Pueblo people that I went to school with are very very careful about what they share or do not share with people not of the pueblo.
Thank you for sharing what you have of it!
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Sword, I will argue with you, vehemently, I’ll disagree with you, I’ll come across as grouchy (because Oscar the Grouch is very much my spirit animal), but it will never be directed at the person behind the keyboard unless that person is being a complete jackhole.
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Sword, I will argue with you, vehemently, I’ll disagree with you, I’ll come across as grouchy (because Oscar the Grouch is very much my spirit animal), but it will never be directed at the person behind the keyboard unless that person is being a complete jackhole.
I appreciate that, same here, one of the things that's given me joy was seeing some of the people who are 'bitter enemies' in the trenches of game design or whatever as staunch allies when actual bigots show up to try and drag our community backwards to a less inclusive place.
(e.g. the thread on the PF2e reviews written by bigoted people fro ma while ago, or when the DNDNEXT community got brigaded by non-community members complaining about the hiring of Welch at WOTC)
It's a weird camaraderie, but I love it.
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i have never understood cultural appropriation. literally the entire history of the advancement of history and civilization is built upon civilization taking from another and advancing it.
Romans stole culture from the greeks - created much of western civilization
Europe got out of the dark ages taking from the east.
Korean and Japanese culture took greatly from chinese culture.
Literally all of music culture is borrowed from other cultures
Most religeon are borrowed.
The idea of people owning culture is so counter to the human experience.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be respectful, but owning culture is like owning an idea.
From I can tell, Paizo tends to be more respectful of how things are depicted, whether that is ideologies or people or cultures, than other companies. Does not mean that they are perfect.
I hae said it before and will say it again, they still have yet to demonstrate a Meso or Native American culture or a Hispanic one. It is hard to say that they are diverse when they refuse to do so. And no, a monster or a mention here or there is not a development.
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Honestly, we really need more options in that department, I was looking for the same thing as Sala and wound up not liking it much either, though I plugged it to friends at the time.
(also the tweet where they called me that specifically was a response to a response on the last tweet on that page, twitter's formatting is awful, I haven't bothered to check back)
Also, homebrew PF2e actual plays would be good.
Yeah a bunch of those things you mention are definitely not good.
Which things now? The Chinese example is because the Chinese were powerful enough to basically export their culture as 'the height of civilization' hence the Heian era Japanese importing Chinese court culture, and Chinese Buddhism (which was itself an Asian-Indian export.) This would later be seen as a problematic foreign influence.
The Europe thing depends on if they're talking about the plunder of the crusades in the high middle ages (Bad) or just the ongoing trade across the Mediterranean when the Islamic world was in it's scientific/economic golden age (Good.)
Romans conquering the Greeks wasn't good though it amplified the influence of Greek Culture even further than before, and its interesting to consider that at large, they practiced a form of imperialism that affected all of Europe (though the victims of that would see that period as it's own Golden Age, and hew back to it basically forever)
To add to their post, modern history is heavily suggestive that similar cross cultural pollination shaped the pre-columbian culture of the Americas. 1492 and 1493 by Charles C. Mann are fantastic books, if you ever want a refreshed look at the world before and just after that event--
it's depiction of recent archaeological finds concerning American Indian cultures have deeply influenced my setting.
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Ty for your hard work.
Glad the thread its self wasn't closed.
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So about the "do not say its name" is that a "by doing so, you run the risk of attracting the evil in question" taboo within the in-group?
If so, I don't think there's any problem for people who are not part of a group that has that taboo saying the name because of things like "by not knowing better like we do, they are putting themselves at risk".
But one thing I wonder, in terms of respecting the stories from real people's cultures what's more important to get right- the actual positive things that the culture values, or the allegorical monsters that they create in order to scare the impressionable into proper behavior. A lot of the monsters that are posited by a lot of cultures seem to be in the "J. Walter Weatherman" vein of cautionary tales made tangible.
So about the "do not say its name" is that a "by doing so, you run the risk of attracting the evil in question" taboo within the in-group?
If so, I don't think there's any problem for people who are not part of a group that has that taboo saying the name because of things like "by not knowing better like we do, they are putting themselves at risk".
But one thing I wonder, in terms of respecting the stories from real people's cultures what's more important to get right- the actual positive things that the culture values, or the allegorical monsters that they create in order to scare the impressionable into proper behavior. A lot of the monsters that are posited by a lot of cultures seem to be in the "J. Walter Weatherman" vein of cautionary tales made tangible.
"by doing so, you run the risk of attracting the evil in question" is exactly what it is, based off the first hand source I was able to find above, they actually described it as something their family didn't really believe in, but didn't want to tempt fate about, and even pointed out that they were never actually forbidden from it, meaning that for their community anyway, it isn't a formal taboo.
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Is it only an issue when cultural appropriation happens at the cost of a minority (more if oppressed)? When does it stop being a problem, how accepted/unoppressed does it need to be?
If it isnt about minorities, then should we include all cases in this, devils, egyptian pantheon, folk tales, etc? How far back in time do we go?
How much is cultural appropriation? Something similar but not exact? Different name? A strong deviation but inspired by it is better than a faithful adaptation to keep context?
How about people from different areas? Additionaly many people wouldnt even have looked into that real world lore if not for the appropriation.
Is the avoiding all topics and symbols from other cultures wise, even if they come to us twisted? Where is the line?
Is it ok that it is in a niche industry like roleplaying but we should pay attention when it is mainsteam? Where is that line?
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Yeah good luck with answering any of that solidly.
I think a good dose of thick skin, communication and understanding on the side of the users will do us more good than being too careful and using blanket actions. The more we know, understand, and educate, the more open we can become.
Very interesting though, my preference is that there is a bread crumb to the creature lore that tells me that it is originated from real world culture and then appreciate the spin. In fact, I would like an asterisk/note specifically for this. Then I can go geek out with the real story and appreciate it for what it is.
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I firmly sit in the "great and expanded mythos" camp, I am far happier with diverse foes than sticking to anglo centric mythos only or trying to pretend obviously influenced creatures aren't the creature with a coat of paint slapped on it and thematics changed just enough to be "different".
I am of the opinion that anti cultural appropriation taken too far can too easily breed otherism and detract from cultural exploration and expansion.
But on that same note it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis by people who are impacted and have decisions made with reason.
I am not someone to respect someone's relgion/belief structure just because they hold one though, I respect their right to have one. But human values are incredibly complex and not as binary (in moral or ethical debate sense) as they are often portrayed to be. So I am less likely to be as sympathetic.
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I have said it before and will say it again, they still have yet to demonstrate a Meso or Native American culture or a Hispanic one. It is hard to say that they are diverse when they refuse to do so. And no, a monster or a mention here or there is not a development.
What about Xopatl in Arcadia? It had an entire article in Borne by the Sun's Grace.
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To touch on a topic brought up earlier, I am of Irish heritage and now that they ditched the booze, the Leprechaun is spot on. They are grouchy and mischievous in the old tales.
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While American culture considers appropriation a bad thing, there are eastern cultures who consider it a positive thing. Going along with the idea of self improvement and seeking enlightenment that is prevalent in the east. How I understand it, the idea is that refusing to adopt ideas just because someone else came up with them is foolish, and that if you find wisdom in another culture, then you should appropriate this wisdom for yourself, furthering your own enlightenment.
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Didn't Paizo 'appropriate' the D20 rule system from Wizards of the Coast?
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While American culture considers appropriation a bad thing, there are eastern cultures who consider it a positive thing. Going along with the idea of self improvement and seeking enlightenment that is prevalent in the east. How I understand it, the idea is that refusing to adopt ideas just because someone else came up with them is foolish, and that if you find wisdom in another culture, then you should appropriate this wisdom for yourself, furthering your own enlightenment.
Only a subculture of American culture considers this a "bad" thing. Americans on average understand cross-cultural ideas are literally what American culture is built on. People from everywhere bringing their cultures and foods and ideas to America and combining it with everything else. Creative types like game designers taking all these ideas flowing through America and world history and turning them into interesting game elements.
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Didn't Paizo 'appropriate' the D20 rule system from Wizards of the Coast?
I'm pretty sure we aren't talking about workplace culture.
Anyway, have you noticed that all your post lately have been about trying to provoke response by making fun of other people's complaints and criticism? I'm pretty sure some of them have gotten removed by mods, so umm. Why are you doing that?
But I digress. In general I'm all for sharing information and such, but I definitely think its more polite to not share information that minority doesn't want to share. But I don't know enough about the topic to know whether wendigo counts or not, I'd imagine it might depend on who you ask as well
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Didn't Paizo 'appropriate' the D20 rule system from Wizards of the Coast?
What, the system that was developed with an open use license... the system that paizo had worked on with/for wotc in the past.
Are you having a laugh?
I'm still concerned.
I'm still concerned.
I mean the good news it's unlikely anyone is going to come for your books, bad news depending on how much stuff like this is a part of the people you routinely game with you may never actually get to use said books again.
Cultural appropriation
A good read but the questions really aren't still answered as far as what should/ shouldn't be used.
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I find the post stating "only non-natives care about this" amusing given there are literally primary sources linked to in this thread.
I have said it before and will say it again, they still have yet to demonstrate a Meso or Native American culture or a Hispanic one. It is hard to say that they are diverse when they refuse to do so. And no, a monster or a mention here or there is not a development.What about Xopatl in Arcadia? It had an entire article in Borne by the Sun's Grace.
Terevalis has been told about Xopatl in about a dozen different threads now and seemingly refuses to believe it exists.
Also, nobody's going to take your Werewolf books away from you. Just be mindful of the harmful stuff in there and do your best to work around it. I don't even know if the NWoD Werewolf moved away from it much - I know the Lunars in Exalted 3E mostly did.
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Cultural appropriationThe idea of Cultural Appropriation is predicated on the concept of Cultural Property Rights which is by no means universally accepted concept. Legally they don't exist and lots of people believe culture, faith, high concepts are part of common wealth of human thought that is held by no individual group but by humanity as a whole.
Quite right!
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Just because it's not illegal to do so doesn't mean you should disrespect other cultures by going against their desires for how their culture should be treated.
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This thread made me realize that the Ankou monster really should have another name. What it is in Pathfinder has nothing to do with the original creature from Breton myth. And the Ankou is a very important part of the Breton legends. It is also one of the most well-known creatures from our legends. I saw that the Pathfinder monster appears in Kingmaker and with the Anniversary edition coming soon, I fear it is far too late to have the name change. Which is a missed opportunity to do right by the original myth.
A myth that many used to believe in and that some still do.
If you see some place I could post about this topic to help Paizo people notice this and maybe correct it if it's not too late, I would be thankful for your help.