I need some guidance in Cheliax lore, reasonable homebrew, and effective GMing. Last session my party failed a heist and all got knocked out and arrested by the dottari.
Backdrop:
We’re in Book 1 on Week 4. The players have gone off-script to fortify the Wasp Nest and clear the nearby sewers over two weeks for better movement. They have freed the mercenaries from the Saltworks, but have not done the other tasks. Then they decided they needed a few things for their growing operation: money, manpower, and notoriety to grow their resistance. Freeing slaves at the same time was also important.
They asked about any slave markets, and while none were listed in the city almanac, I figured there would be a single small one for use in the plantations of the North Plains or possibly mines, as well as Nidalese merchants. The citizens don’t love it, but it’s legal. Tossed in the sale of indentured servitude contracts there as well. They decided to hit it.
What happened:
Waiting for peak hours and several sales to go through, the PCs waited for one last sale before jumping in. They simultaneously tried to knock out a noble who was leading newly-purchased slaves away, free a couple new slaves being led out for sale, and steal the strongbox with the gold in it before it was transferred indoors. They did not team up in this endeavor, spreading themselves thin and eventually committing to the fight against the auctioneer’s men instead of fleeing, resulting in their getting surrounded. No one offered surrender, so they fought on. Dottari showed up and eventually subdued them all.
Aftermath:
They all used non-lethal until the very end. Two employees were knocked out, and one dottari. After two players went down, the third player finally used lethal for the first time and managed to kill an employee (fourth player missed session). A freed slave was also knocked out. There were no other casualties.
No one is aware they are the Silver Ravens, although two of them did shout a tagline that outs them as Milani adherents.
Options:
They killed someone. If it wasn’t for that, this might be different. This is too serious for a dottari tower, so instead I’m thinking they get sent to the Holding House from Book 2 for processing. One player has Legal Lore, but I cannot imagine it saving them from a serious sentencing for attacking both citizens and the city guard, plus killing someone (even if only 1 of them did the murder).
The player who missed the session wants to break them out, preferably using the sewers and the tengu and mercenary teams, plus some goblins they subdued in the sewers, as well as Laria and Rexus. This sounds difficult for their level. Additionally, they’ve done this sort of thing before in other campaigns: bold actions that get them in trouble with the law that they disregard. I can’t let them off the hook easily, otherwise they’ll just do it again (been there, done that, and had an OOC talk at that time).
Refusal to let them try a jailbreak (arguing it’s just too heavily fortified and no wide sewer connection) is an option to show there are consequences, and a new group of characters are needed (in Book 2 they can free their old characters and choose who to play?).
I can’t think of other options. It seems assault and murder would not just have them doghoused and released. Murder seems too steep for 6 months indentured servitude or some other small enough time period that we could “fast forward.”
What do you think a reasonable punishment is given how lawful Cheliax is, and balancing player fun without letting the players off the hook for terrible choices?
It depends on who got murdered. If it were a dottari, then yeah, they are kind of screwed.
It also depends on who they are. Anyone who declared they are worshippers of Milani will likely be sent to the Salt Works or perhaps shipped out to the silver mines. But children of nobles may very well be given a more... lenient sentence, with the leniency used to hold the noble family hostage and force them to ally with Thrune.
But to be honest? It would probably be better at this point for the majority of the group to create new characters. It will teach them to be more careful with their actions, and the need to look for diplomatic approaches, scouting out the situation ahead of time, and playing more intelligently.
This is especially true seeing this isn't the first time the party has done something like this. In fact, having the entire group undergo an official Doghousing and end up dying as a result? I could see that, if you want to especially drive the point in. Fortunately, my party has been far more careful (and actually has avoided killing any intelligent foes outside of Nox, the Lout, evil outsiders, and one ally of the kyton that forced their hand). But then, I also did let them know there would be consequences for their actions so....
Fingers crossed. Don't forget. The game is meant to be fun... but that means it should be fun FOR YOU as well as the players.
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The noble happened to miss the session. He's wondering if he can buy them as slaves. Otherwise two are former slaves, and the third a low class orphan from Isger.
They killed an employee of the slave market. They knocked out two other employees, and a dottari. They attacked but failed to knock out a noble (min damage). They freed one slave by breaking a lock on their cage. They broke a door. They also gave another slave a knife and told him to fight for them.
I think they will be resistant to new characters. The only one who would be okay with it even told me don't worry, just do what Cheliax law would do. But I should mention new characters as an option to gauge a reaction of the others.
Other options I've thought of....
Serve as slaves to those they hurt in some way, or sent off to the silver mines for X time (6mo, 1-2 years). Causes a fast forward in time, although would force me to adjust the campaign timeline.
Public lashings followed by branding and possible limb loss (finger... hand!?, eye, etc).
Doghousing let's them be rescued, unless I make it heavily protected. But the remaining PC may be under the impression a rescue is possible, then.
If it wasn't for that murder... ugh.
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Well. You could have the one who committed murder be sentenced to death. Have the others put in the Salt Works and let the noble work to free them, possibly by raiding the Salt Works. They did attack a noble after all. Sadly, the rules are vague on what the laws in Cheliax call for murder.
There is also bribery. The Pathfinder Compendium Cheliax: Empire of Devils has this chart for bribery and various crimes:
Offense............................Bribe
Public Lewdness................. 5 cp–10 gp
Breaking the Peace.............. 1 sp–25 gp
Larceny (depending on severity) 5 sp–100 gp
Assault........................ 10 sp–50 gp
Murder (depending on victim).. 200–20,000 gp
Blasphemy.................... 1,000–10,000 gp
So. Assault of a noble? 50 gold. Assault of a dottari? Probably 25 gold. Assault of two employees? 10 gold each.
Larceny (freeing a slave): 100 gold
Murdering a slave trader? 10,000 gold. And let it be known that the character will be doghoused for one week if that bribe isn't given. (Trust me. Doghousing is *lethal* and Book 6 pretty much admits as much seeing that some monsters can emit the hunger felt by those who starved to death while being doghoused.) And have it be obvious that it is a fight beyond the PCs, using the Doghousing rules in Book 2.
Here is a quote from the above-mentioned book.
The law constrains judges to sentences in accordance with the class of crime, alowing discretion for the severity of the crime and its effect on the city; the law provides a complicated formula for sentencing, but many of the lesser judges simple ignore these mandates rather than try to make sense of these complex if and butotherwise statements.
Punishments range from censure, such as the stocks or branding, to excruciations in the city center. The Church prefers to avoid quick and private executons, except in cases of enemies of the state who must disappear eficiently and quietly. House Thrune believes that a public morning excruciation is a better deterrent to crime and revolt; its memories linger throughout the day, serving as a telling reminder of the perils of lawbreaking.
Alternatively, you could have a named villain approach the party in prison and give them the opportunity to earn their freedom by betraying the rebellion. You could make the offer secretly to one PC and utilize some kind of magical geas to keep them on mission. This is assuming you have a player who would be happy to work with you for this plot to work properly.
Given the Rebellion at this point is four weeks old and hasn't done anything, I'm not sure how this could work. The only thing they did was shut down the Salt Works (which was run by a corrupt dwarf skimming off the top) and attack the small slave auction. So why would anyone care, especially in regards to a murderer?
I still suspect having most of the party (except the noble) forced to create new characters is the best bet, as it teaches the group that their actions will have consequences. You could even have them be given to the family of the slaver they killed and shipped to southern Cheliax by ship, and thus have no opportunity to free them.
*sigh* I am so lucky I have my gaming group....
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There is also bribery. The Pathfinder Compendium Cheliax: Empire of Devils has this chart for bribery and various crimes:
Offense............................Bribe
Public Lewdness................. 5 cp–10 gp
Breaking the Peace.............. 1 sp–25 gp
Larceny (depending on severity) 5 sp–100 gp
Assault........................ 10 sp–50 gp
Murder (depending on victim).. 200–20,000 gp
Blasphemy.................... 1,000–10,000 gp
Bear in mind that the charges would almost certainly be cumulative, and apply to each PC. Each PC (except the absent PC) aided and abetted the others, and even the ones who exclusively used nonlethal damage are subject to the felony murder rule. So we're looking at a total bribe north of 600 gold sails and possibly north of 60,000. The latter is obviously beyond the party's, or even the SRs' resources in Book 1.
Worse, the PCs outed themselves as Milani worshipers. Milani's is an outlawed religion and her church is a subversive/seditious organization, so that makes them enemies of the state and liable to swift and quiet execution rather than hard labor or excruciation.
But note - death doesn't necessarily work normally in Kintargo, and there are archdevils interested in the outcome of these events. So you could use the Soul Anchor to have the PCs retain their memories as lesser outsiders a la Blosodriette. They should incarnate not in Kintargo itself, but either on the planes most appropriate to their alignments or in Hell (under the care of Odexedie or one of Mephisopheles's or Mahathallah's minions). From there you could have them quest to return, or encourage the players to make new characters able to call the old characters with lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding once they level enough.
I'd have the murder charge applied to only one person. Though actually, that would be a truly twisted way of breaking the group. Have the guards state that murder charges would be applied to all of them unless they turn in the murderer. The dottari know who killed the slaver, but use this to turn the characters against one another.
(I also wouldn't allow the silver raven figurines to be used to pay off the debt, due to their association with the old organization. Then again, I only let my group find *one* of the ravens, just to discourage any such behavior. They'll slowly find more as time passes.)
True about Milani. Though they only shouted a catch-phrase, so if they don't outright admit to being Milanites then it's just a minor blasphemy charge that two characters uttered, so another 2,000 gold bribe needed to overlook it.
P.S. - I looked on the rules more and they don't even say how much you have to pay! So the noble would have to try and guess how much to bribe, and if they don't bribe enough then the charges may be lessened but won't disappear. Though to be honest, I could see a noble thinking a slaver's life isn't worth a lot. ^^
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To be clear, those are the costs of bribery to make the charges go away, right? Meaning they might be higher than the fines associated with them if it doesn't get bribed away, in exchange for not being arrested, jailed, and tried - not to mention the real punishments after trial.
Yeah, this is the time to reveal the soul anchor. Have the player who was okay with a new character be the one who's executed. Then, do something like...
... have his consciousness take over the body of some random NPC who had a near death experience that wasn't actually near death. He's been reincarnated and has some memory of the soul anchor's role in the process.
... flash forward to him coming back to life with some narrated experience with the the soul anchor... in his body as it is being cremated. Then the rest of the session is the rest of the party trying to get to him "in the nick of time." Now's the time to use omens and weird shared dreams and such to send the message that the players are aching to receive.
Then use the buying the survivors and using bribery to get the others out.
Now's the time to use omens and weird shared dreams and such to send the message that the players are aching to receive.
What omens are weird dreams are they aching to receive? I think I misunderstood.
How about this... [wall o' text incoming]
After speaking to more players, they would rather have a shot at rescue than just giving up and making new characters. They acknowledge this would make the campaign more difficult if they succeed, due to increased notoriety early in the campaign. They also understand the escape should not be easy. They plan to push the trial in a direction to win them a public punishment and/or execution because it'd be easier to save them there than break into the well-guarded Holding House. So I've got to make some choices, which I'm bad at.
The remaining PC is using the teams to discover where the arrested PCs are. They're inquiring into various guard towers and hope to send someone to non-nonchalantly visit a clerk at the Holding House to inquire within, to see "If those criminals got what they deserved."
Meanwhile in the Holding House, I have to assume the guards give them the works. Now, because they have no obvious ties to the Silver Ravens or any large underground group, I don't think Barzillai even knows about what happened (or would care three ex-slaves failed miserably in a heist against a private citizen). This also means a top-tier interrogator wouldn't be called in. Perhaps first a low level detective grills them over the basics. Because he finds a symbol of Cayden Cailean on one of the clerics and a symbol of Abadar and Milani (plus a book of Milani's teachings) on another cleric... plus how suspiciously well-armed and armored they are for a typical gang or cult… an inquisitor of Asmodeus might be brought in (maybe Sabo, the level 7 warden of the Holding House from Book 2, or maybe a lower level one). They only have one silver raven figurine on them, but I don’t think most folks would make the connection between it and an old “gang” that died small and ingloriously decades ago.
We’re playing in 2e. Detect Alignment is a level 1 spell. I assume that gets used on them, discovering they are NG, NG, and CG. Zone of Truth is a level 3 spell, so this may or may not be available to the inquisitor who sees them. Discern lies, which Sabo herself has, is a level 4. I figure whoever it is uses those spells and good old fashion coercion and light torture to see if they’re a gang/if they’re mercs being paid/if they’re part of an underground Milani or Cailean cult. If any of those, they would want to know who and where their compatriots are, then go after those folks (which includes the noble PC who missed the session as well as Laria and Rexus at the Coffee House, causing a raid). Does this all seem reasonable?
If they resist or insult their captors, I assume bad stuff happens. Removed fingernails, broken finger, lashings, etc. Then comes their punishment.
It seems simple that some lackey would offer to Barzillai some nobodies got caught but they could be used as examples. Barz could take the opportunity to make a public speech – or send a stand-in to not waste his time – saying his new rules are exactly why they are needed: there are criminal elements out there trying to hurt the whole city, sowing chaos and violence. Maybe they go to execute the PCs, but then a cleric speaks up, saying there’s been a reprieve: Barzillai shows mercy. Instead just one PC is executed. Then the others are branded on the forehead or cheek and given lashings. Then 2 PCs are led away for doghousing followed by imprisonment or slavery, but that’s when the remaining PC and his teams (tengu, merc, goblins – all off-screen or not actively controlled) spring their rescue attempt.
The brand forces even more disguising in the future. The Coffee House probably gets raided and they have to move out – the Livery or the sewers their current obvious options for next HQ. They lose 1 silver raven figurine, the magic boots from Nam/albino alligator, their gear, and a few other odds and ends (although they can probably recover some/all of it in Book 2 if they target the stores when breaking out the Torrent armigers).
It seems like it'd cancel Barzillai ever rewarding the group for helping the city in Book 2… or not realizing who they were, he would, but the group would either definitely refuse (a recurring issue anyway for groups given what I’ve seen in this forum) or accept… and then everyone realizes who they are and attacks.
Now's the time to use omens and weird shared dreams and such to send the message that the players are aching to receive.What omens are weird dreams are they aching to receive? I think I misunderstood.
As in, due to your narration of the flash forward that the seemingly dead PC isn't but will wake up at some point in the future to be cremated the players know this but their PCs don't. Then you give omens and dreams that give the PCs clues in game that they can save their friend, which the players already have because they heard you narrate the flash forward.
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Okay. I'm going to suggest one thing.
Let the dice fall where they roll.
Don't fudge things for the players. Don't be lenient. If they die or are recaptured then so be it. They need to learn that just because they're the "heroes" doesn't mean they will be able to do whatever they want.
Further, have the Raven teams act intelligently. They're not cannon fodder. They're not going to commit suicide. If things are going bad they are going to split and run. This is especially true for the tengu sisters and the mercs. Likewise, Laria and Rexus undoubtedly see themselves as the true heart of the Rebellion.
At the very least allow Rexus and Laria to escape so they can rebuild the Ravens with new PCs!
Sometimes players need to learn they can't just be murderhobos and have to think their actions through.
So. How'd it go?