Spell Blending

[thaX]

So...

"You theorize that spell slots are a shorthand for an
underlying energy that powers all spellcasting, and
you’ve found a way to tinker with the hierarchy of spell
slots, combining them to fuel more powerful spells.
When you make your daily preparations, you can trade
two spell slots of the same level for a bonus spell slot of
up to 2 levels higher than the traded spell slots. You can
exchange as many spell slots as you have available.
Bonus spell slots must be of a level you can normally
cast, and each bonus spell slot must be of a different
spell level. You can also trade any spell slot for two
additional cantrips, though you cannot trade more
than one spell slot at a time for additional cantrips in
this way."

My only question is that I can still trade two Cantrips for a 1st or 2nd level spell slot, right?

Reason is that even though cantrips start out as 1st level spells themselves, the slots are still below 1st level slots in the memorization paradigm.

[Aratorin]

You can't do that. Cantrips don't use Spell Slots.

Quote:

Cantrips

A cantrip is a special type of spell that doesn’t use spell slots. You can cast a cantrip at will, any number of times per day. A cantrip is always automatically heightened to half your level rounded up—this is usually equal to the highest level of spell you can cast as a wizard. For example, as a 1st-level wizard, your cantrips are 1st-level spells, and as a 5th-level wizard, your cantrips are 3rd-level spells.

[Orithilaen]

Yep, it's important in the PF2E paradigm to break from the idea that cantrips are 0-level spells that use 0-level slots. They are their own thing, like focus spells, not like spells you cast from slots at all.

[thaX]

You still have to memorize them. They have the slots to use for them to be available.

If I can't use them in this way, it makes this thesis useless for any character not starting at fifth level. (you don't really have enough slots at third to be able to afford to lose two first level spells for a second level one)

Not sure what the purpose of this thesis was if Cantrips can't contribute.

[HumbleGamer]

thaX wrote:

If I can't use them in this way, it makes this thesis useless for any character not starting at fifth level. (you don't really have enough slots at third to be able to afford to lose two first level spells for a second level one)

That is your opinion only.

If you find that trading slots at low levels is not worth it, you can simply refuse to do that.

Possibilities are given, and choices have to be made.

[thaX]

So, Cantrips can't be memorized? Or are they not considered spells?

So at third level, you would have one first level spell and three second, or no 1st level, three second, and an two extra Cantrips?

Sad thing is, I am now stuck with this and it still won't work with the higher level trade outs on HLO, which was the reason I ask this question.

I will just memorize the regular slots and forget about the thesis altogether. It is useless.

[thenobledrake]

thaX wrote:

So, Cantrips can't be memorized? Or are they not considered spells?

The rules say "A cantrip is a special type of spell that doesn’t use spell slots."

You do prepare them, and they are spells - but they do not use or interact with spell slots in any way.

thaX wrote:

So at third level, you would have one first level spell and three second, or no 1st level, three second, and an two extra Cantrips?

Given the stated limitations of Spell Blending, those both are possible configurations.

thaX wrote:

It is useless.

A hammer not holding your pasta while water drains away from it doesn't make a hammer useless.

[thaX]

Prepared casters have spell slots specific to Cantrips, though Cantrips can not be memorized in regular spell slots. There would be no reason to, since they are automatically heightened anyways.

I just needed a clarification on if those cantrip slots can be used to provide the spell blending spots for the other spell slots. Seems I have my answer, and a part of my character is totally useless for the purpose of that usage.

Thank you for the discussion. This is on top of the character being a Diviner. Not sure where to go from this point, it isn't worth retraining.

[Aratorin]

thaX wrote:

You still have to memorize them. They have the slots to use for them to be available.

If I can't use them in this way, it makes this thesis useless for any character not starting at fifth level. (you don't really have enough slots at third to be able to afford to lose two first level spells for a second level one)

Not sure what the purpose of this thesis was if Cantrips can't contribute.

Yes, Spell Blending may be weaker at low levels, but it makes up for this by being unequivocally the most powerful Thesis at higher levels. A Spell Blending Wizard is the only character that can cast more than 2 10th Level Spells per day.

The temporary HP from Rage aren't particularly useful at low levels either.

Signature Spells aren't very useful at Level 3.

[thenobledrake]

thaX wrote:

Prepared casters have spell slots specific to Cantrips

The rules explicitly say otherwise, and while I understand the ease of using that terminology, I encourage you to break the habit so that you don't continue to run into mismatches between the way you are thinking/speaking of cantrips and the way the rules treat them.

Prepared casters have a number of cantrips they can prepare each day. There is no such thing as a "cantrip spell slot."

[thaX]

core rule book wrote:

If you’re a prepared caster, you have a number of

cantrip spell slots that you use to prepare your cantrips.
You can’t prepare a cantrip in any other slot.

I apologize, I must have read this wrong...

I don't have to prepare cantrips at all, just have the rool booken beside me and casty any cantrip no matter what. Right?

Yes, there are spell slots a wizard had to use for Cantrips. They can not "prepare" cantrips in any other spell slot other than those cantrip spell slots. Did you think they were called something else?

[thaX]

Aratorin wrote:

thaX wrote:

You still have to memorize them. They have the slots to use for them to be available.

If I can't use them in this way, it makes this thesis useless for any character not starting at fifth level. (you don't really have enough slots at third to be able to afford to lose two first level spells for a second level one)

Not sure what the purpose of this thesis was if Cantrips can't contribute.

Yes, Spell Blending may be weaker at low levels, but it makes up for this by being unequivocally the most powerful Thesis at higher levels. A Spell Blending Wizard is the only character that can cast more than 2 10th Level Spells per day.

The temporary HP from Rage aren't particularly useful at low levels either.

Signature Spells aren't very useful at Level 3.

The diviner signature spell is broke, only useful if the GM is very kind.

Weak isn't the word, though. It is Non Existent, just as if there was no thesis or class ability there at all. I might as well say that the character's skin is blue with yellow polka dots, it amounts to the same mechanical benefit.

[Xenocrat]

Aratorin wrote:

Yes, Spell Blending may be weaker at low levels, but it makes up for this by being unequivocally the most powerful Thesis at higher levels. A Spell Blending Wizard is the only character that can cast more than 2 10th Level Spells per day.

Every 20th level specialist wizard can cast four, five with spell blending.

1 - base
2 - specialist slot
3 - arcane bond
4 - 20th level feat
5 - spell blending

The Wizard's 19th level class feature granting 10th level spells, unlike a couple of other classes, lacks language barring other abilities that increase spells from interacting with it.

[Aratorin]

thaX wrote:

core rule book wrote:

If you’re a prepared caster, you have a number of

cantrip spell slots that you use to prepare your cantrips.
You can’t prepare a cantrip in any other slot.

I apologize, I must have read this wrong...

I don't have to prepare cantrips at all, just have the rool booken beside me and casty any cantrip no matter what. Right?

Yes, there are spell slots a wizard had to use for Cantrips. They can not "prepare" cantrips in any other spell slot other than those cantrip spell slots. Did you think they were called something else?

This quote is from the general rules. The quote I posted in my first post is from The Wizard rules, and makes clear that cantrips do not use spell slots.

Even the Thesis itself makes this distinction.

Quote:

You can also trade any spell slot for two additional cantrips, though you cannot trade more than one spell slot at a time for additional cantrips in this way.

[thaX]

So where does it say that Cantrips spell slots are excluded from use in Spell Blending other than the inferance that there are no cantrip spell slots?

I had thought at the time that the addition of two more cantrips was... goofy. Why would you need more cantrips to the point of sacrificing a 1st level spell? That makes no sense.

Whatever, it is just a class feature that is useless for this character, and any character that takes it at first level. You would have to be planing for future builds to use this proper, and I am not typically one to plan out characters from beginning to end. That is no fun for me.

[Unicore]

How is the diviner's signature spell being limited by your DM? It can be used on saving throws and non-secret skill rolls as well as skill rolls.

Spell bending at low levels is good for giving you lots of cantrips at low levels and then at higher levels it is incredible.But if you really hate it, talk to your GM, be sure to let them know that you feel like you are having no fun with your character and they should help you rework your character to make it more fun.

[thaX]

It's the timing. It can't be used during exploration mode and is only good for a round.

[mrspaghetti]

thaX wrote:

It's the timing. It can't be used during exploration mode and is only good for a round.

I assume you're referring to the Divine Arcane School 1st level focus spell. Not useless at all, imo. It's almost as good as a free hero point.

I agree with the consensus of the thread, Spell Blending is balanced. Low levels not super impressive but more than makes up for it at higher levels.

[Nefreet]

thaX wrote:

This is on top of the character being a Diviner. Not sure where to go from this point, it isn't worth retraining.

Is this for PFS?

You have less than two weeks left for a full, free rebuild.

Activate the Boon on your Organized Play profile asap.

[thenobledrake]

thaX wrote:

It's the timing. It can't be used during exploration mode and is only good for a round.

What are you trying to use it on in exploration mode that you're being told you can't use it on?

[Unicore]

Diviner's sight can also be applied to another character and it can easily be used many times a day, making it a lot better than 1 free hero point. You roll the die in advance so you can apply it to saving throw, an intimidate check, any athletics or acrobatics checks, or not if you rolled badly. Alternatively, it let you know what you rolled on a recall knowledge check.

There are very few wizard focus powers with that kind of versatility.

[Malk_Content]

Yeah dont know why you couldn't use it in exploration, just only for things that are immediately going to be rolled. You might have to quickly pipe up that you want to use it but that's all.

E.g

GM: the cliff face looms before you, you can either climb it or go round but that will take a couple of hours.

Barbarian: I will scale the cliff and then drop a rope for the others.

Diviner: Wait before you roll I use Diviners Insight. It's a 16.

[thaX]

That would take more than one round with the cliff face.

With cantrips not being able to provide the character with the extra 1st level spell, it is not all that useful and I likely should have gotten Spell Substitution instead.

HLO doesn't have any way to use Spell Blending in the App either, and likely won't for some time.

Perhaps I will use the ability once I hit 5th level, but that is a lot of non-use for a class ability early on, just disappointed on how this plays out.

[mrspaghetti]

thaX wrote:

That would take more than one round with the cliff face.

It's not the length of time of the activity that matters, it's the roll, which usually only happens once and always happens in one round.

[Aratorin]

mrspaghetti wrote:

thaX wrote:

That would take more than one round with the cliff face.

It's not the length of time of the activity that matters, it's the roll, which usually only happens once and always happens in one round.

Why would you assume that? The Climb Action has a fixed result. You don't just roll once and assume you made it up a 100 foot cliff side because you succeeded.

Quote:

CLIMB [one-action]

MOVE
Requirements You have both hands free.

You move up, down, or across an incline. Unless it’s particularly easy, you must attempt an Athletics check. The GM determines the DC based on the nature of the incline and environmental circumstances. You’re flat-footed unless you have a climb Speed.

Critical Success You move up, across, or safely down the incline for 5 feet plus 5 feet per 20 feet of your land Speed (a total of 10 feet for most PCs).

Success You move up, across, or safely down the incline for 5 feet per 20 feet of your land Speed (a total of 5 feet for most PCs, minimum 5 feet if your Speed is below 20 feet).

Critical Failure You fall. If you began the climb on stable ground, you fall and land prone.

For most PCs, anything higher than 5 feet is going to take more than one roll.

Anything more than 15 feet is going to take more than one Round.

[mrspaghetti]

Aratorin wrote:

mrspaghetti wrote:

thaX wrote:

That would take more than one round with the cliff face.

It's not the length of time of the activity that matters, it's the roll, which usually only happens once and always happens in one round.

Why would you assume that? The Climb Action has a fixed result. You don't just roll once and assume you made it up a 100 foot cliff side because you succeeded.

Quote:

CLIMB [one-action]

MOVE
Requirements You have both hands free.

You move up, down, or across an incline. Unless it’s particularly easy, you must attempt an Athletics check. The GM determines the DC based on the nature of the incline and environmental circumstances. You’re flat-footed unless you have a climb Speed.

Critical Success You move up, across, or safely down the incline for 5 feet plus 5 feet per 20 feet of your land Speed (a total of 10 feet for most PCs).

Success You move up, across, or safely down the incline for 5 feet per 20 feet of your land Speed (a total of 5 feet for most PCs, minimum 5 feet if your Speed is below 20 feet).

Critical Failure You fall. If you began the climb on stable ground, you fall and land prone.

For most PCs, anything higher than 5 feet is going to take more than one roll.

Anything more than 15 feet is going to take more than one Round.

I stand corrected.

But surely there are other examples of skill checks that would benefit from the diviner focus spell. And it's probably going to be used most often in encounter mode anyway.

[Unicore]

There are tons of skills that it can be applied to, and great ones for in combat, but it does have some limits. More so than other any other focus spell though? Focus spells that are valuable in combat and out of it are hard to come by.

As far as spell bending, I really think the low level application is trading one 1st level spell for 2 extra cantrips until you get to a high enough level to where it is worth more to use it on your highest level spells. At early levels, having the right cantrip can be worth more than a level 1 spell as far as maximizing your versatility.

[thaX]

"As far as spell bending, I really think the low level application is trading one 1st level spell for 2 extra cantrips until you get to a high enough level to where it is worth more to use it on your highest level spells"

My overall read on that is that Spell Blending is a Thesis that is for retraining into, when it is actually useful, rather than something to take at level 1.

As I have said, I don't tend to plan out characters from level 1 to 20. PF2 in particular is likely a disappointing game for those trying to gain the system in this way. Spell Blending, without the ability to use the cantrips spell slots as well, seems to be a planing mechinism for later levels rather than a class ability that will be useful at character creation.

[Nefreet]

I like the idea of trading a 1st-level slot for two Cantrips, because you can just carry scrolls of 1st-level spells in their place, but scrolls can't be made of Cantrips.

Seems a viable Level 1 tactic, at least.

[thenobledrake]

Nefreet wrote:

I like the idea of trading a 1st-level slot for two Cantrips, because you can just carry scrolls of 1st-level spells in their place, but scrolls can't be made of Cantrips.

Seems a viable Level 1 tactic, at least.

Another way of looking at it is that Spell Blending as your thesis gives you the ability to trade a 1st-level spell slot for the effect of a 2nd-level feat, plus also doing other stuff later on.

[Unicore]

thaX wrote:

"As far as spell bending, I really think the low level application is trading one 1st level spell for 2 extra cantrips until you get to a high enough level to where it is worth more to use it on your highest level spells"

My overall read on that is that Spell Blending is a Thesis that is for retraining into, when it is actually useful, rather than something to take at level 1.

As I have said, I don't tend to plan out characters from level 1 to 20. PF2 in particular is likely a disappointing game for those trying to gain the system in this way. Spell Blending, without the ability to use the cantrips spell slots as well, seems to be a planing mechinism for later levels rather than a class ability that will be useful at character creation.

I agree that the limited number of options at this point in the game's cycle makes it where you often feel like there are less choices for your character than there are currently in PF1, and that the ability to retrain out of things is pretty essential (and should be built in by GMs) when an option isn't doing what you thought it would in play.

However, I think there are a lot of players who are happy to have 7 cantrips a day at low levels, even at the cost of 1 1st level spell. It might not be what every player wants, but it isn't a useless option.

[thaX]

I would rather have the extra memorized spell with the fewer Cantrips, but seeing how the Cantrip spell slots are not spell slots... I think... it hamstrings the usefulness and as stated before, is likely one for later levels than something for the beginning levels. I don't know why they even have it as a choice at this level.

[Unicore]

It seems like maybe we are talking past each other.

Clearly you thought that it would let you trade cantrips for slotted spells. At the point your GM realized that that is why you chose this ability, and that is not what it was going to do (which was probably the very first session), they should let you trade it out, if they haven't already. If they don't, that is really unfortunate.

But it exists at level 1 because that is the only level you can choose theses, and a lot of people are comfortable choosing it, knowing that they can get the extra cantrips early, and more higher level spells later on. That might not be enough for you, but I think it is still one of the stronger theses.

I just like spell substitution more because I like playing wizards for their versatility as opposed to their power level and I love having a bunch of spells in my book for a wide array of challenges, knowing that I don't have to memorize them, but I will still be able to use them in a pinch. I also usually like to have a bunch of scrolls on me too.

[Nefreet]

thaX, are you referring to your PFS2 Gnome Diviner? Lemtwist?

Just rebuild them while you can, for free.

Problem solved.

[thaX]

Well, part of the charm of this character is that he is a bit scatter brained and having a useless thesis is in character for the lil' gnome. He is a Diviner, afterall, the weakest of the schools.

[Unicore]

thaX wrote:

Well, part of the charm of this character is that he is a bit scatter brained and having a useless thesis is in character for the lil' gnome. He is a Diviner, afterall, the weakest of the schools.

Well it seems like you are enjoying the character then which is definitely the most important part of a build. But I don’t know why you think diviners are the weakest school of magic. They might be weaker than the PF1 diviner, but so is every other character build in either PF2 or PF1. I think as far as wizards go, the are in the top 3 or 4 schools as far as powers and spell options.

[thaX]

The choice of school spells at the beginning is not that great, though having See Invis as a school mem is pretty cool.

[Unicore]

Diviner is the weird specialist that often doesn't memorize more than a couple of spells from their specialization per level, but they usually do have very good spells to have at each level:

Cantrip: detect magic
1st: true Strike!
2nd see invisibility, darkvision, comprehend languages, (each one is situational, but having 2 out of those 3 means you will probably have at least 1 useful one each day, depending upon your character and your party needs).

and then by level 3 you get clairaudience, locate, mindreading and get to be the know it all from there on out.

I think your character sounds like a lot of fun.