So this came up in my group recently. How on a lance do Jousting and Deadly work together. In the end three ideas came from it. The problem being that with jousting if you move at least 10 feet before an attack you get bonus damage equal to the number of damage dice for that weapon. So a 2d8 striking lance would give +2 damage. then deadly comes in on a critical and adds one weapon damage dice.
1,The extra damage from jousting and deadly do not mix at all. ie 2d8 striking lance +4 for jousting, then deadly die added and nothing else.
2 the extra damage from jousting and deadly do mix and jousting damage is doubled working with the deadly die. ie 2d8 striking lance +4 for jousting, then deadly die added in and +2 for jousting from deadly die.
3 The extra damage from jousting and deadly do mix and jousting damage is not doubled working with the deadly die. ie 2d8 striking lance +4 for jousting, then deadly die added in and +1 for jousting from deadly die.
Jousting
The weapon is suited for mounted combat with a harness or similar means. When mounted, if you moved at least 10 feet on the action before your attack, add a circumstance bonus to damage for that attack equal to the number of damage dice for the weapon. In addition, while mounted, you can wield the weapon in one hand, changing the damage die to the listed value.
Deadly
On a critical hit, the weapon adds a weapon damage die of the listed size. Roll this after doubling the weapon’s damage. This increases to two dice if the weapon has a greater striking rune and three dice if the weapon has a major striking rune. For instance, a rapier with a greater striking rune deals 2d8 extra piercing damage on a critical hit. An ability that changes the size of the weapon’s normal damage dice doesn’t change the size of its deadly die.
I know this only matters for lance at the moment but I think other groups might have the same problem mine did and we could not find anyone talking about it.
This also came up in my group and we generally figure it would go #2.
Justification: The deadly die, while it is caused by a critical hit, is a weapon damage die and benefits from Jousting. Jousting is not damage that is caused by a critical hit, so would be doubled, despite the deadly die being rolled after doubling occurs.
Essentially, the deadly die counts as a weapon die when calculating your Jousting damage or the benefit from the Horse Support action.
It would be different if the Deadly die were added to your damage calculation after doubling, but it isn't. It's only rolled after doubling. It is present when you figure out your Jousting damage, so the Jousting damage should be doubled.
Edit for clarity.
This also came up in my group and we generally figure it would go #2.
Justification: The deadly die, while it is caused by a critical hit, is a weapon damage die and benefits from Jousting. Jousting is not damage that is caused by a critical hit, so would be doubled, despite the deadly die being rolled after doubling occurs.
Essentially, the deadly die counts as a weapon die when calculating your Jousting damage or the benefit from the Horse Support action.
It would be different if the Deadly die were added to your damage calculation after doubling, but it isn't. It's only rolled after doubling. It is present when you figure out your Jousting damage, so the Jousting damage should be doubled.
Edit for clarity.
I do not believe this would be the case. Picks for example don't add the FATAL die to their crit specialization last time I checked, so it's probably wise to use that order of operations.
You joust and hit - you total your damage with the bonus jousting damage added - you then double this and then add Deadly.
But if you can find sources that suggest FATAL/DEADLY die count towards this, I would happily concede and enjoy a new found love of such specs.
Simply done. Fatal adds an additional die of damage, not a weapon damage die. So the Pick critical specialization does not apply to that die.
Deadly however does specifically add a "weapon damage die". Jousting is not a critical weapon trait: It looks at the number of weapon damage die you have, and adds damage accordingly. If there were a Fatal Jousting weapon, the Fatal die would not count towards Joust either.
Deadly does add a die that would count. Since you add the die on a hit, it is present when you count your weapon damage dice for Jousting, so that damage is already tabulated when you double despite deadly specifically calling out that you roll that die after you double. It doesn't matter that you roll it after for the purposes of Jousting though, you've already counted it and added it's damage to your jousting damage.
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I do not believe this would be the case. Picks for example don't add the FATAL die to their crit specialization last time I checkedSimply done. Fatal adds an additional die of damage, not a weapon damage die.Fatal says this: "On a critical hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one additional damage die of the listed size." which can be read as the added die being a weapon damage die because of the bolded words and the context they are used in.
And pick critical specialization says: "...takes 2 additional damage per weapon damage die."
So I am pretty sure that situation should be handled the same way as the deadly/jousting combo is.
Except that at a minimum, the extra damage from Fatal is caused by a critical hit, so would not be eligible to be doubled anyway. Jousting is not caused by a critical hit, so is eligible for doubling. The real question is, when is the Deadly die added to your damage? I say it is added when you critically hit, then rolled after you double. This means that you would count that die for the purposes of Jousting.
I agree though that Fatal could be read to be a weapon damage die, which largely doesn't matter. Unless say you use a Fatal weapon with the horse support benefit or some similar ability I suppose.
Edit: Come to think on it, why doesn't the Fatal die count for Pick Critical specialization? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't, if it is a weapon damage die.
My group played with #1 in place, because of how we procedure the math out
- Roll your normal damage die
- Add any flat modifiers you may have (STR, Jousting/Forceful, Weap Spec., Inspire Courage)
- Roll elemental/effect dice (flaming rune)
- Calculate the total
- Double that total
- Add any deadly/fatal dice you may have, as well as any other potential additional damage gained upon a crit
- Calculate your new total
- Apply the damage to the opponent's Resistance/Weakness
- Reduce health from the opponent
#1 is the answer. Page 279, Core Rulebook:
Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like.
Well, I have a lot of damage roll's to redo I guess. Good catch on that!