Hello,
I'm looking at potential back-up character ideas for a campaign I'm currently in, (PF rules, Birthright campaign setting with a few houserules added in, only one relevant for character building being low availability of magic items requiring CL 6 and above).
The starting level would be at least 5 (my current Character, Sacred Huntsmaster inquisitor, is 5,and the alchemist would replace him when he dies, as Resurrection magic is almost impossible to get in the setting). PB is 25, race preferably human or something that can easily pass as human.
I'd like to focus on Natural Weapons (via Feral Mutagen discovery) and am thinking of going either full Alchemist with Vivisectionist and Beastmorph archetypes or maybe adding 1 rogue level (Birthright campaign setting is also about kingdom management, which is pretty skill intensive so 4 extra skill points would be handy).
I got a few questions however:
- Should I go Str or Dex based?
- How to go about avoiding the 25 minute workday? I get a dose of mutagen for 40-50 min where the char is a powerhouse but what can it do afterward (assuming sitting around for 1 hour to prepare a new mutagen is not possible at that point)
- Any other general tips&tricks for alchemists?
- Should I go Str or Dex based?
- How to go about avoiding the 25 minute workday? I get a dose of mutagen for 40-50 min where the char is a powerhouse but what can it do afterward (assuming sitting around for 1 hour to prepare a new mutagen is not possible at that point)
- Any other general tips&tricks for alchemists?
I'd go STR-based, but I think I'm in the minority.
To avoid the 50 minute work-day, remember that the Mutagen isn't your only buff. Heroism is great, and even if you're focusing on Natural Attacks you can still use other weapons. If necessary skip Infusion until a bit later so you have more for youself.
Finally I'm a big fan of at least a 1 level dip into Master Chymist for a Mutagen-focused Alchemist. If you're going beastmorph as well I'd go Alchemist-7/Master-Chymist-1/Alchemist-3, then decide if you want more MC or Alchemist (10th level is great for the beastmorph).
I'd go STR-based, but I think I'm in the minority.
To avoid the 50 minute work-day, remember that the Mutagen isn't your only buff. Heroism is great, and even if you're focusing on Natural Attacks you can still use other weapons. If necessary skip Infusion until a bit later so you have more for youself.
Finally I'm a big fan of at least a 1 level dip into Master Chymist for a Mutagen-focused Alchemist. If you're going beastmorph as well I'd go Alchemist-7/Master-Chymist-1/Alchemist-3, then decide if you want more MC or Alchemist (10th level is great for the beastmorph).
I too would prefer to go Str-based, but I'm a bit worried about AC. Thanks for pointing out the Master Chymist, it's awesome both mechanics and flavor-wise.
@Scott Wilhelm thank you as well for all the options you have given me, now I need to look 80% of that up :) I'm more of a 3.5 veteran with this being the first game actually using PF rules, as opposed to just porting 1-2 classes in a 3.5 game.
The Dex to damage Problem is solved however, as Deadly Agility is allowed.
I too would prefer to go Str-based, but I'm a bit worried about AC.Well, Mutagens do give you a Natural Armor Bonus. Warpriests are allowed to wear Heavy Armor. And you could sacrifice 1 Attack and carry a Shield. Or you could take Vestigial Arm and Carry a Shield.
I agree with all of that (well it doesn't have to be a Warpriest, but even if you're not dipping there's nothing stopping you from getting better armour with feats).
Remember that your Mutagen gives you an "untyped" bonus to Natural Armour, while the Barkskin spell Extract gives an "enhancement" bonuses to Natural Armour. This means that you can't use both Barkskin and an Amulet of Natural Armour, but you could use Barkskin and a Mutagen.
Honestly Alchemists have enough tricks to up their AC that I think you'll be fine.
Thanks for pointing out the Master Chymist, it's awesome both mechanics and flavor-wise.
I agree, it's amazing. Just three things to note:
1. It doesn't increase your sneak attack. The GM might let the bomb scaling increase your SA instead, it can't hurt to ask.
2. Master Chymist lets you count your Alchemist levels as prerequisites for your "Advanced Mutagens" (so A-10/MC-2 can take Greater Mutagen as an "Advanced Mutagen"), but it does NOT work the other way round (so A-10/MC-2 CANNOT take Greater Mutagen as a normal Alchemist Discovery). This means that you usually either want to just dip 1 level of MC, or get all your alchemist levels BEFORE swapping to MC (or do what I suggested above and dip 1 level, then finish Alchemist, then max out MC when you know you won't want to come back to Alchemist).
3. If you go Alchecmist-10/MC-10 you won't get your 6th level extracts till level 19. It's probably not going to bother you all that much, but it might so I mentioned it.
Also just a thought, have you considered the INVESTIGATOR?
It has similar functionality to a Vivisectionist.
Technically you can't take Feral Mutagen (and would have to take Mutagen as a discovery), but if your GM's amenable it might give you what you want?
EDIT: I thought of this because your avatar is the Iconic Investigator.
Also just a thought, have you considered the INVESTIGATOR?
It has similar functionality to a Vivisectionist.
Technically you can't take Feral Mutagen (and would have to take Mutagen as a discovery), but if your GM's amenable it might give you what you want?
EDIT: I thought of this because your avatar is the Iconic Investigator.
Didn't really consider investigator, thanks for pointing it out. I merely started on alchemist, and was trying to get a melee build out, and thought natural attacks were cool.
You're also right about the AC thing, did a bit of math and between some good armor (like Elven Chain), Mutagen, Barkskin and possibly a Vestigial Arm with a shield the AC an Alchemist could reach is quite respectable.
Regarding the many good suggestions I have received, they're all good things to know about, however many of them can't be applied to the current character/campaign. I can't really be a Tengu (or any other obviously weird race for that matter) due to setting RP considerations and we're trying to do a lower powered campaign this time around (tier 3 and below if you guys are familiar with the tier system from D&D 3.5) so most 9 level spell casters (like Witch and Druid in this case) are not available.
What I'm thinking of doing at this moment:
Going for Bloodrager 1 (Draconic or Infernal Bloodline)/Alchemist 7/Master Chymist 1/Alchemist 11 (although the game likely won't go past level 11-12 or so).
I'd get 2 claws permanently (from bloodline) and a gore attack (from Helm of the Mammoth Lord) and then I could use Mutagen and Bloodrage at the same time for a hefty Str boost and a Bite attack in addition to the 2 claws and gore. What do you guys think about it ?
Also, apart from the obvious (Power Attack) what would be good feats for such a build?
Thanks again for your time!
Didn't really consider investigator, thanks for pointing it out. I merely started on alchemist, and was trying to get a melee build out, and thought natural attacks were cool.
If you don't profit from Beastmorph granting pounce at 10th level, and don't want to rely on Feral Mutagen, Investigator is likely superior. It starts a bit slow (when not dipping), but Studied Combat (with Quick Study making it a swift action) is awesome for a natural attacks build. There are different ways to build this, depends on the races aviable, and how much you're willing to multiclass. A single level can grant two NAs, and that's doable twice (Bloodrager and Shifter). 4 levels of Weretouched Shifter can grant 5 primary natural attacks and pounce.
Going for Bloodrager 1 (Draconic or Infernal Bloodline)/Alchemist 7/Master Chymist 1/Alchemist 11 (...) apart from the obvious (Power Attack) what would be good feats for such a build?
Extra Rage, especially as the claws are only active when raging. If you want early Gore, Spirit Oni Master can do that. Otherwise, shore up weaknesses or broaden out your character. When in doubt, Extra Discovery.
Extra Rage, especially as the claws are only active when raging. If you want early Gore, Spirit Oni Master can do that. Otherwise, shore up weaknesses or broaden out your character. When in doubt, Extra Discovery.
Yup extra rage makes sense. That rule that some stuff only works during Bloodrage is in a weird place :( I wouldn't have found it if I wasn't looking for it specifically.
I did briefly play a Bloodrager-1/Investigator-4. I hit like a truck, but I will say that my AC and general defensive capabilities left something to be desired. This can be compensated for, but it's something you'd want to focus on a little more than usual. You could potentially take the URBAN BLOODRAGER archetype as it doesn't have the AC penalty and has a more versatile stat-boost.
... as Resurrection magic is almost impossible to get in the setting).So ... Ultimate Mercy and rule the world? You can even fit it in by 5. But that's a different build.
Nice, I had no idea you could get Resurrection magic at such a low level in PF. As one of the main reason ofor lack of Resurrection magic in the setting is the lack of high level clerics, that could totally work :)
2)Mutagen is not limited per day, it just takes an hour to make another as you noted. If GP isn't going to be an issue (since fewer magic items to buy) you may consider the Infuse Mutagen, the main drawback is the 1000 gp (well and the Int damage). Otherwise, at 14 its basically 'all day' since its hour/level at that point.
As money won't be an issue in this campaign, a second Mutagen is certainly a strong backup option.
3) AC, my Alchemist was the 'tank' of the party. If you take Extra Traits (Armor Expert and Sargavan Guard) along with the Comfort enchant and Mithral material you can reduce the ACP by 6, which coincidentally is the ACP of Full Plate. Since this reduces the ACP to 0, there is no effective penalty for non-proficiency.
But more importantly, Layered Defenses. Ablative Barrier, Shield, Barkskin, Blur/Displacement,...
I had no idea there were so many ways of reducing armor check penalty, thanks :) Traits are not allowed in this campaign, but it's something to keep in mind for the future.
Also, thanks for pointing out Curative Distillation and Explosive Missiles. Both are really nice :)
I did briefly play a Bloodrager-1/Investigator-4. I hit like a truck, but I will say that my AC and general defensive capabilities left something to be desired. This can be compensated for, but it's something you'd want to focus on a little more than usual. You could potentially take the URBAN BLOODRAGER archetype as it doesn't have the AC penalty and has a more versatile stat-boost.
Urban Bloodrager does look a lot nicer than regular Bloodrager for what I'm trying to build, thanks for pointing it out.
As the party will likely end up with too many melee characters anyway, I have decided to shift my focus a bit from all-out combat toward skills and I think I'm going for a half-elf investigator with the Eideticist archetype and a Dex-focused build.
What I have so far (25 PB);
Str 7
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 9
Cha 14
Int and Dex will go to 18 at level 4 (house rule to get +1 to 2 stats instead of just 1).
Feats
Lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Lvl 3 :Extra Investigator Takent
Lvl 5: Deadly Agility
Talents: Quick Study, Infusion, Mutagen
My thoughts:
I love the Half-Elf investigator (I think their FCB is the Bee's Knees).
Eideticist? I assume you mean the Empiricist? With those stats you don't really need the Empiricist (not that it's bad, but it's main strength is INT-to-Everything). My favourite is the Lamplighter, check it out.
I know someone will disagree with me, but 7 STR is Looow. If it were me I'd drop CHA to 12 and increas STR and WIS by 1. If you're doing those for role-play reasons then ignore this part obviosusly.
Deadly Agility is a 3rd party feat. I don't remember if you said you could use 3rd party stuff, but if you can't you'l have to change that.
You can't take Quick study till level 5. I know you're starting at level 5, but if those were meant to be in order that's a thing. Probably doesn't matter, but if there was something else relying on it then ... you know, just checking.
Generally, looks like a fine guy or gal.
My thoughts:
I love the Half-Elf investigator (I think their FCB is the Bee's Knees).
Eideticist? I assume you mean the Empiricist? With those stats you don't really need the Empiricist (not that it's bad, but it's main strength is INT-to-Everything). My favourite is the Lamplighter, check it out.
I know someone will disagree with me, but 7 STR is Looow. If it were me I'd drop CHA to 12 and increas STR and WIS by 1. If you're doing those for role-play reasons then ignore this part obviosusly.
Deadly Agility is a 3rd party feat. I don't remember if you said you could use 3rd party stuff, but if you can't you'l have to change that.
You can't take Quick study till level 5. I know you're starting at level 5, but if those were meant to be in order that's a thing. Probably doesn't matter, but if there was something else relying on it then ... you know, just checking.
Generally, looks like a fine guy or gal.
Yes, I totally meant Empiricist :)
The main reason I took it was that it gave me Sense Motive and Use Magic Device on Int (which let me dump Wis and worry less about Cha) , but Lamplighter also looks cool, thanks for pointing it out.Regarding the 7 Str, due to how the campaign is built (each character is a noble, effectively King of a small realm), it will be excedinly rare for the character to need to carry more than his rapier and armor. Dropping Cha to 12 for a but of extra Wis (and Str) is a good idea though, especially if going Lamplighter.
Deadly Agility is ok to use (the entire Path of War is actually, we're all pretty big Tome of Battle fans in my group :))
It doesn't matter mich for this character, as I can just swap talents around, but as a general question, why is it not possible to take Quick Study at 3? It has no listed prerequisite (so you don't need to have Studied Target to take it) and I've seen several guides/people recommending it as a first Investigator talent.
Oh, I really thought Quick Study had a level requirement, but apparently I made that up =P I personally wouldn't take it before it's usable (whatever the guides say), but it doesn't matter for you at all, so never mind I guess.
Other than that, sounds good. If you've thought about it all and have reasons for everything you're good =)