Wildshape / BeastShape question

[Xavram5]

So I've got a Druid in our party and he just started using Wildshape. My question is, while I know he gets the attacks of the creature he transforms into that creature.

But what about the attacks to hit and damage bonus? And what about "normal" rules for size adjustment?

Examples :

Turns into a Deinonychus, which has the following attacks.
2 talons +5 (1d8+2), bite +5 (1d6+2), foreclaws +0 (1d4+1)

But...this assumes the dino's Str of 15. Our Druid has a strength of only 10, so would these attacks instead be...
2 talons +3 (1d8+0), bite +3 (1d6+0), foreclaws -2 (1d4-1)

Also, if you turn into a Small creature, do you get the normal Small bonus of +1 to hit and +1 to AC? BeastShape I just says, "If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus." So is that the ONLY bonus they get or do you have to factor in the normal size bonus/penalties (If Large, do they get a -1 to hit and -1 to AC)?

Thanks!

[Derklord]

Xavram5 wrote:

But what about the attacks to hit and damage bonus?

You make completely new calculations for that. You use your BAB, your strength, your feats and buffs.

Xavram5 wrote:

2 talons +3 (1d8+0), bite +3 (1d6+0), foreclaws -2 (1d4-1)

The attack roll bonuses are correct presuming the Druid started out with a strength of 8 - the Beast Shape spells grants a +2 size bonus to strength when using it for a medium sized creature, and Wild Shape includes that bonus, too. The damage roll for the foreclaws is wrong, since it's a a secondary attack and thus the strength bonus got halfed. Since half of 0 is still 0, the damage roll is 1d4+0.

If the Druid has 10 strength in natural form, the full attack routine is 2 talons +4 (1d8+1), bite +4 (1d6+1), foreclaws -2 (1d4).

Xavram5 wrote:

Also, if you turn into a Small creature, do you get the normal Small bonus of +1 to hit and +1 to AC?

No matter the means they ended up being small with, every single non-medium-sized creature in the game is affected by the general size modifiers (for small, that's +1 AC, +1 to attack rolls, –1 CMB, -1 CMD, +4 Stealth, and +2 Fly). What the spell grants (+2 Dex and +1 natural armor) is fully in addition to that.

If you haven't done so, read the general polymorph rules, either here or on pg. 211f of the CRB, and the natural attack rules, either here and here or on pg. 182 of the CRB and page 301f of the Bestiary.

[Xavram5]

Got, okay, so we have to re-calculate everything with the Druids BAB, Str, Dex, etc, factoring in bonuses from BeastShape and for size differences. Fun...:)

[Derklord]

Xavram5 wrote:

Got, okay, so we have to re-calculate everything with the Druids BAB, Str, Dex, etc, factoring in bonuses from BeastShape and for size differences. Fun...:)

Correct. And that's before Power Attack, Haste, Greater Magic Fang, Inspire Courage, or the bonus from Charge...

I strongly suggest using either two seperate character sheets*, or at least to 'cheat sheets' with the most used information for the seperate forms handily aviable. Klick here to see the one I made for my group's Druid a while back. That's an 8th level Druid, with the relevant statistics in human form, Allosaurus form, and for the Animal Companion, all sized to be printed on one A4 sheet of paper. I suggest making those sheets for every character, actually, you can see the one from my own Summoner in that campaign, and a more extensive sheet for my current group's Zen Archer Monk (a 2-page-sheet with ability/feat explanations).

*) Or more if the Druid wants to use multiple forms, but usually, the Druid uses the same form every time, like Deinonychus for medium size, Dire Tiger for large size, or Allosaurus for huge size.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Xavram5 wrote:

Got, okay, so we have to re-calculate everything with the Druids BAB, Str, Dex, etc, factoring in bonuses from BeastShape and for size differences. Fun...:)

It's probably not as much recalculating as you think. You are still using the Druid's BAB. Beast Shape specifies stat changes for ST, Dex, Size, and Natural Armor. And I think you get a -1 on All Attack Rolls per Size Increase, so -1 for Size Large, -2 for size Huge, but you get a +2 on all combat maneuver Bonuses and Defense per size increase.

Derklord wrote:

I suggest using either two separate character sheets*, or at least to 'cheat sheets' with the most used information for the separate forms handily available.

That seems like a good idea.

[Derklord]

Derklord wrote:

If the Druid has 10 strength in natural form, the full attack routine is 2 talons +4 (1d8+1), bite +4 (1d6+1), foreclaws -2 (1d4).

Correction of a typo: foreclaws -1 (1d4).