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This doesn't really make sense to me, as calling them "elf gates" gives the elves credit for creating them, which I would think they would like. I know if I invented something cool I would want to put my name on it some how (either by just calling it (my name) (thing) or making a play on words involving my name.)So, in multiple books the Aiudara (permanent portals created by the elves) are sometimes called "Elf Gates", and notes that most elves find this term offensive but never explains why. So, why do they?Because the elves see these portals as being something that all ancestries can use to spread diversity and bring distant regions and worlds together, and calling them "elf gates" implies that they're only used by elves and that the elves don't want them to be used by anyone else.
Because you subscribe to the Lockean theory of property, where if you mix your labor with a thing, it becomes yours (nb: this is a dominant ideology in our society, but doesn't really describe how it works - ownership of a thing in our society is conveyed by protection of its boundaries with force, not labor upon it). The dominant conception of property in elvendom is presumably different.
So, in multiple books the Aiudara (permanent portals created by the elves) are sometimes called "Elf Gates", and notes that most elves find this term offensive but never explains why. So, why do they?Because the elves see these portals as being something that all ancestries can use to spread diversity and bring distant regions and worlds together, and calling them "elf gates" implies that they're only used by elves and that the elves don't want them to be used by anyone else.
If the Elves intended for all ancestries to use them, under what circumstances would a non-elf be granted access to a gate? Further, if PF2e elves are not the xenophobes of PF1e, then why are parts of Kyonin "swathed in illusion and supernatural mists to deter non-elven visitors from straying from their designated areas," that include elf-gates (Lost Omen World Guide, p. 127). This statement seems to imply that non-elves are not permitted to use the gates, which contradicts the notion of "free-access" to all ancestries.
I am keenly interested in incorporating an elf-gate into my homebrew campaign, which includes a mixed party of half-elves and non-elves. But at the same time, I am a massive fan of Golarion lore and would like to adhere to established canon whenever possible.
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One of these days we'll be able to print more up-to-date information about the elves and Kyonin. Alas, that day is not today.
In the meantime, having the elves be generous and free with the use of elf gates is a good way to make your players appreciate them. They're still protective of any gate that leads right into Kyonin though...
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why are parts of Kyonin "swathed in illusion and supernatural mists to deter non-elven visitors from straying from their designated areas," that include elf-gates (Lost Omen World Guide, p. 127).
Anything specifically in Kyonin must be understood in the context that Kyonin is, among other things, a buffer state between the rest of the world and Treerazer, and they need to be very careful about letting anyone near the Tanglebriar un-vetted.
One of these days we'll be able to print more up-to-date information about the elves and Kyonin. Alas, that day is not today.
I look forward to that with great interest, James! Is there anything currently in the works that you can talk about?
In the meantime, having the elves be generous and free with the use of elf gates is a good way to make your players appreciate them. They're still protective of any gate that leads right into Kyonin though...
Thank you for this! A plot point in my campaign can now be realized.
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One of these days we'll be able to print more up-to-date information about the elves and Kyonin. Alas, that day is not today.I look forward to that with great interest, James! Is there anything currently in the works that you can talk about?
In the meantime, having the elves be generous and free with the use of elf gates is a good way to make your players appreciate them. They're still protective of any gate that leads right into Kyonin though...Thank you for this! A plot point in my campaign can now be realized.
There's nothing currently in the works focusing on elves or Kyonin.
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Anything specifically in Kyonin must be understood in the context that Kyonin is, among other things, a buffer state between the rest of the world and Treerazer, and they need to be very careful about letting anyone near the Tanglebriar un-vetted.
It is a buffer state between Sovyrian on Castrovel and Tanglebriar on Golarion. And indeed between Sovyrian and Golarion at large. The rest of Golarion can go hang as far as Kyonin's rulers and subjects are concerned.
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It is a buffer state between Sovyrian on Castrovel and Tanglebriar on Golarion. And indeed between Sovyrian and Golarion at large. The rest of Golarion can go hang as far as Kyonin's rulers and subjects are concerned.
There's not really much evidence of the latter bit, IMO. Certainly there's none since the retcon/errata discussed by James Jacobs above.
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Kyonin is the primary elf nation on Avistan. It's not a "buffer state" or a bulwark or a fortress designed to keep non-elves out. That's the unintended influence of Tolkien and D&D that leaked in and is proving so hard to wash off, and is one bit of the world lore that really frustrates me didn't have more curation and guidance by me (Kyonin is one of the regions imported from my homebrew setting, but when we decided to first explore it, I wasn't able to be the one to write about it or develop it, alas) so that we could have set up our elves the way I envisioned them for Golarion and Pathifnder the first time. It might be too late to change that now, but I'll remain hopeful that some day it might still come about.
In the meantime, I'll just step back from the thread since it seems like it's just going back and forth with people talking over each other...
Completely agree. I’m very excited by the take on elvendom that is being developed here. Of course using the term elf necessarily comes with its own connotations for every different reader. I’ve always disliked the take on elves whic focusses on them being arrogant isolationist xenophobes - as amongst other things it often does come off as lawful neutral. I always personally preferred the freedom loving, somewhat chaotic fey depiction influenced of course by their longevity. I think elves of golarion are very interesting and would definitely support further products exploring their societies and individuals.
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I am really interested in your take on Elves James. Please continue to elaborate on your vision of them. I am also enjoying your portrayal of Shensen in Band of Bravos and I've been trying to extrapolate what other elves might be like based on her.
Shensen is not representative of elvendom for a myriad of reasons, including being a half-elf and not being raised in an elven community's mores, but by a hermit of a human druid. She has neither nature nor nurture going for her.
Better Jacobs-inflected NPCs to look at for inspiration are Shalelu (RotRL) and Aravashnial (WotR).
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I am referring to the character James is playing in the Band of Bravos live play, which I though was an Elf.
Might have changed by the broadcast, but the blog still says half-elf.
Shensen is a legacy PC of Mr. Jacobs's, and yes, that was her backstory. I don't believe it has been retconned for any purpose.
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She's still a half elf, and her backstory is the same (although I doubt that her backstory is going to feature in the plotline of Band of Bravos much, if at all). I definately play her with an eye toward "how would a chaotic good elf bard act, since for much of her "life" in her original incarnation as a PC she WAS an elf. She only became a half-elf near the end of that first campaign I played, as the result of a reincarnation spell.
She's more representative of elvendom than humanity, as far as I'm concerned. Using my portrayal of her in Band of Bravos to extrapolate what other elves might be like in Golarion isn't a bad way to go about it, and is certainly going to get you a more accurate window into my view on elves than is reading content about them from products that are over a decade old.
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Shensen is not representative of elvendom...
I think we need to be careful telling people what a character is/not given that the person playing it is present in the conversation AND the creative director who, for the purposes of Pathfinder, both invented elves and holds the reins on their future development. I know I wouldn't presume to tell people what Shensen (the Band of Brother's version) represents nor how that is reflective of elven life in Kyonin or elsewhere.
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I wasn't alienated at all by Dark Souls 2, I don't really know anyone who was.
Sorry to bring off-topic back but I was, to be honest. But it wasn't because it felt like "it strayed too far to appeal to a wider audience" or anything like that, if anything it was trying too hard to be the same as its predecessor without actually knowing how to do it. More like a cheap knockoff than a sellout, to put it bluntly.
Back to the (current) topic: I hope we get to see this portrayal of elvendom explored further in PF2, I've been bored by Tolkien-esque and Tolkien-adjacent elves since... well, since I read Tolkien actually. I think that trope is well past its expiration date. Also, the gates being there, as James put it, "to spread diversity and bring distant regions and worlds together", sounds much more interesting than the "tree-hugger sect" stereotype that non-Tolkien elves tend to fall into.