So, in multiple books the Aiudara (permanent portals created by the elves) are sometimes called "Elf Gates", and notes that most elves find this term offensive but never explains why. So, why do they?
Creative Director
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So, in multiple books the Aiudara (permanent portals created by the elves) are sometimes called "Elf Gates", and notes that most elves find this term offensive but never explains why. So, why do they?
Because the elves see these portals as being something that all ancestries can use to spread diversity and bring distant regions and worlds together, and calling them "elf gates" implies that they're only used by elves and that the elves don't want them to be used by anyone else.
Is this a 2E change? Because in Elves of Golarion and ISWG it notes that the elves guard the existence and locations of the aiudara, and says that elves are isolationist and Kyonin's borders are closed.
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Is this a 2E change? Because in Elves of Golarion and ISWG it notes that the elves guard the existence and locations of the aiudara, and says that elves are isolationist and Kyonin's borders are closed.
Yes. Furthermore, being framed as a cultural/worldview rather than a policy/political change, it is necessarily a retcon rather than a development.
Also, Elves of Golarion is 3.5. It was out of date by 2008, never mind 2019.
Is this a 2E change? Because in Elves of Golarion and ISWG it notes that the elves guard the existence and locations of the aiudara, and says that elves are isolationist and Kyonin's borders are closed.Yes. Furthermore, being framed as a cultural/worldview rather than a policy/political change, it is necessarily a retcon rather than a development.
Also, Elves of Golarion is 3.5. It was out of date by 2008, never mind 2019.
I was under the impression that it WAS a political change (though that doesn't negate that it's likely also a worldview change, as you said), given the dissolution of the Winter Council and the write-up on the Lantern Bearers in Adventurer's Guide.
My confusion is that the elves considered the elf gate term vulgar when they were still isolationist and protective of the Aiudara, which makes it difficult to reconcile with James' comment.
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The elf retcon (inasmuch as it is a retcon, which it is partially, but there is also the Winter Council in-world change) predates PF2 by a fair bit, and was well into happening in later books of PF1.
Basically, elves being 'holier than thou' isolationists was never the creative team (and director's) intent for Golarion but snuck in as a default from other settings when some authors' work wasn't able to be properly vetted early on. They've been trying to change it ever since.
Ah, ok, that makes sense.
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The elf retcon (inasmuch as it is a retcon, which it is partially, but there is also the Winter Council in-world change) predates PF2 by a fair bit, and was well into happening in later books of PF1.
Basically, elves being 'holier than thou' isolationists was never the creative team (and director's) intent for Golarion but snuck in as a default from other settings when some authors' work wasn't able to be properly vetted early on. They've been trying to change it ever since.
Setting material can sneak by. But there's a whole AP volume premised on Kyonin being isolationist. Was management that lax?
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Setting material can sneak by. But there's a whole AP volume premised on Kyonin being isolationist. Was management that lax?The elf retcon (inasmuch as it is a retcon, which it is partially, but there is also the Winter Council in-world change) predates PF2 by a fair bit, and was well into happening in later books of PF1.
Basically, elves being 'holier than thou' isolationists was never the creative team (and director's) intent for Golarion but snuck in as a default from other settings when some authors' work wasn't able to be properly vetted early on. They've been trying to change it ever since.
Yes.
Speaking as the one who outlined and developed that adventure path, it was a very frustrating thing to deal with, especially given the fact that I prefer not to "throw authors under the proverbial bus" when a freelancer fails to provide what we asked for... but there were some pretty significant broken deadlines on that adventure path that, when combined with the fact that we were also facing the fact that Wizards of the Coast's choices with 4th edition were compelling us to build our own RPG at the same time we were also working on this Adventure Path, made the environment surrounding the development of the last third of Second Darkness pretty fraught with peril.
So yes, management (me) at the time did drop the ball in portraying elves in the way that the original campaign outline had hoped to do. I had pretty good reasons for dropping that ball though, I think.
Also, it's worth remembering that at the time, given the fact that we knew we'd be asking our customers to trust us and stick with us going forward in producing games that were NOT D&D games, but our own RPG, that we were paranoid and cripplingly timid about making big changes to the expectations. So that likely also colored my decisions, making me more timid about setting up our elves to be more properly chaotic good rather than the traditions from D&D and Tolkien that, I feel, are more lawful neutral.
I'm on record in multiple places saying that "Second Darkness" is the AP I'd most love to revise and represent in a hardcover format, but unfortunately I doubt that'll ever happen since it tends to make more sense from a business standpoint to revisit and reprint adventure paths that were perceived as more popular. It's a catch-22. If you screw something up on an AP, you get to live with it forever because it's not something you're likely ever going to be able to fix in a reprint.
The next-best thing? Take advantage of a new edition of the game to reset errors, since a new edition not only makes a good division point to do this from a workflow perspective, but because the amount of newcomers to the game (and thus to the setting) is enormous. It's just a lot harder to correct and improve canon and world lore than it is rules since the industry has a culture where rules errata is expected and eagerly anticipated but flavor/lore errata is all but unheard of. I guess the difference there is that math-based corrections are easier to justify to those who like math than it is art-based corrections to those who like art, since art is so much more subjective than math.
So how publicly known are Aiudara and how many people would know how to use them? They would seem to be an incredibly important strategic and commercial asset, so if they can be used easily, they'd be tightly controlled.
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So how publicly known are Aiudara and how many people would know how to use them? They would seem to be an incredibly important strategic and commercial asset, so if they can be used easily, they'd be tightly controlled.
Before or after Age of Ashes?
The aiudara are ancient, and long predate human civilization as we know it. They fell into disuse for thousands of years following Earthfall, and by the time human civilization was re-establishing itself, their locations had largely been forgotten and did not influence the locations of new settlements. Today they are mostly in either wilderness or elven settlements (both small and large).
As time passes they are being rediscovered and reactivated. The latter process takes tools and know-how most people don't possess.
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Because the elves see these portals as being something that all ancestries can use to spread diversity and bring distant regions and worlds together, and calling them "elf gates" implies that they're only used by elves and that the elves don't want them to be used by anyone else.So, is there nothing to the suggestion in Queen of Thorns that there is something... innuendous... about the term?
Also, I learned a new word today!
Could be, but that's left to the imagination.
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I do think however that Second Darkness remake is kinda necessary.
Why? Because despite how much James Jacobs says that elves are canonically supposed to be basically peaceloving hippies willing to share their advanced portal technology, LO campaign setting books and Age of Ashes are still pretty much compatible with depiction of elves from original second darkness book :/
(on side note I might be bit biased here since I would definitely throw money at second darkness and legacy of fire remakes :p There is also that Second Darkness is at same time the only riddleport AND kyonin AND darklands AP, so its only one capable of filling that niche. I'd like to think that people hungry for 2e content would be happy with any hardcover campaign really, but then again that might not be the case. That said not really sure what 1e aps would need update to 2e?
Like kingmaker makes sense since as the ap where writers can't say anything about its canon, it makes sense to let new 2e players play their own version of it, but with all other aps there is kinda that "Well, do you really need to update this either plot or mechanics wise?" Both Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire would benefit form update in my view due to them being written in the early 3.5 times. I GUESS technically Council of Thieves and Serpent's skull might benefit from update due to severe deadline problems. I guess Skulls & Shackles update to 2e would be good chance to redo ship combat mechanics and such. But rest of APs don't either have a mechanical gimmick that sets up certain type of campaign(pirate campaign with ships, kingdom building) or heavy problems plot, setting or mechanics wise that would benefit from update especially. But again that could just be my bias, you could argue that RotR and Crimson Throne were perfect way they were even if I have hard time telling what 3.5 stuff is canon and what isn't)
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in avistan or something) it could be about "The people elves built them for were jerks"
I mean, that's pretty much canon. When the aiudara were built, elvendom occupied most of the land in Avistan-Casmaron-Garund (it was a unified landmass in those days) east of the Mindspin Mountains and north of the northern Tropic.* Most of the network connects this area today, plus some territories that in that time were elven outposts/exclaves like Mierani and some territories that were legitimately foreign. But their neighbors to the west were the slaver Azlanti humans (including the Thassilonians) and Syrinx (I forget where, but there's a mural somewhere of embassies from these powers congregating with elves). Their neighbors to the south were the genocidal serpentfolk. To the southeast were the cyclopes. Their states were not exactly neighborly, and almost certainly formed the bad impression of Golarion peoples that the elves upon their return had to overcome.
With the contraction of Sovyrian elvendom to Kyonin proper (plus Hymbria), the geographic separation and diversification of the Ekujae, Ilverani, and aquatic elves** from Kyonin and from each other, and the occupation of formerly-elven lands by non-hostile foreign peoples (Taldans, Kellids, dwarves, etc.), the aiudara can ironically better serve their function today than when they were built. Assuming that they can be reactivated and connected to settlements and trade routes that grew up around - and largely bypassed - them. A project which is ongoing, and will be completed one of these centuries, soon enough for the elves. Maybe they can be shaken out of their complacency by Oprakian competition in portal-facilitated trade?
(I would also buy a Second Darkness remake. Hell, I'd invest in a Second Darkness remake.)
* Does anyone know the proper name for this? Even Paizo staff in, e.g., the map thread use "Tropic of Cancer," but this can't be its name, seeing as the constellations are different.
** Do they have an endonym?
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Yeah I would definitely join in crowdfunding of ap remakes too :'D(heck I did so with Kingmaker) Though I'd crowdfund even 2e or starfinder campaign book that was completely original and not AP compilation or upgrade...
Paizo's gonna keep pumping out original 2E and SF adventures regardless. They have a schedule for, and a staff dedicated to, each project. One of the reasons remakes don't usually happen is that they require diversions of existing staff and resources, hiring and purchasing new staff and resources, or both. The point of investing in a remake is to enable Paizo to divert as few staff and resources as possible by giving them more to work with, and so minimize disruptions to their existing plans.
The next-best thing? Take advantage of a new edition of the game to reset errors, since a new edition not only makes a good division point to do this from a workflow perspective, but because the amount of newcomers to the game (and thus to the setting) is enormous. It's just a lot harder to correct and improve canon and world lore than it is rules since the industry has a culture where rules errata is expected and eagerly anticipated but flavor/lore errata is all but unheard of.
So, you are saying that, setting wise, the switch is from 1E to 2E is more of cosmic retcon than a timeskip?
Yawar,
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So, you are saying that, setting wise, the switch is from 1E to 2E is more of cosmic retcon than a timeskip?
Not "more." There are more and bigger setting elements that were changed as a response to the passage of time and the events of APs than there are that were retconned. The Worldwound was intended to have been open at some point even if it is closed in 2E; Vidrian's colonial history was not erased by decolonization (in principle - in practice it probably won't have any ramifications going forward); Ravounel's independence is not longstanding except in a technical legal sense; New Thassilon is, well, new; the current leaderships of Magnimar, Korvosa, Andoran, Taldor, and Minkai were not there ten years ago in-setting.
The retcons are more opportunistic. As long as many big things are changing due to the passage of time, why not take advantage to tweak some assumptions?
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Creative Director
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The next-best thing? Take advantage of a new edition of the game to reset errors, since a new edition not only makes a good division point to do this from a workflow perspective, but because the amount of newcomers to the game (and thus to the setting) is enormous. It's just a lot harder to correct and improve canon and world lore than it is rules since the industry has a culture where rules errata is expected and eagerly anticipated but flavor/lore errata is all but unheard of.
So, you are saying that, setting wise, the switch is from 1E to 2E is more of cosmic retcon than a timeskip?
Yawar,
The "retcons" are errata, not cosmic transformations.
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The "retcons" are errata, not cosmic transformations.
The next-best thing? Take advantage of a new edition of the game to reset errors, since a new edition not only makes a good division point to do this from a workflow perspective, but because the amount of newcomers to the game (and thus to the setting) is enormous. It's just a lot harder to correct and improve canon and world lore than it is rules since the industry has a culture where rules errata is expected and eagerly anticipated but flavor/lore errata is all but unheard of.
So, you are saying that, setting wise, the switch is from 1E to 2E is more of cosmic retcon than a timeskip?
Yawar,
Cosmic transformations are god/the author's errata.
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And what's wrong with Total War? I've been playing that since the first Medieval game eighteen years ago.
Also, I'm highly amused by people presuming to tell the Creative Director what's what in their game.
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The ¨Mythical¨ part refers to the fact that many companies end up changing the soul of the product so much that they end up alienating the core fandom which made them popular in the first place.
Good riddance to fandoms. There's nothing of social value in them. They are at their best a poor substitute for religion.
And "products" don't have "souls," that is fetishism at work. "Mythical" indeed.
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The ¨Mythical¨ part refers to the fact that many companies end up changing the soul of the product so much that they end up alienating the core fandom which made them popular in the first place.
Y'know, I don't even think this statement is wrong. Companies have 100% done this and it's been a mistake.
But, frankly, if changelings and harpies being 'all female' was 'the soul' of Pathfinder for you, then you're far too much of a niche market for Paizo to worry about you.
Or were you referring to some other change?
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The ¨Mythical¨ part refers to the fact that many companies end up changing the soul of the product so much that they end up alienating the core fandom which made them popular in the first place.Y'know, I don't even think this statement is wrong. Companies have 100% done this and it's been a mistake.
But, frankly, if changelings and harpies being 'all female' was 'the soul' of Pathfinder for you, then you're far too much of a niche market for Paizo to worry about you.
Or were you referring to some other change?
Not really, it was side snide, but I felt compelled to elaborate upon request of a fellow old soldier who has travel farther and wider upon this lands.
What worries me is that it might become a trend and not see a "Grim dark" take on the setting like Second Darkness or Rise of the Runelords. Those APs had scenes that were deeply disturbing and put stakes that felt more ominous than loosing a PC to death.Humbly,
Yawar
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Oh, about that: Paizo flat out confirmed that as part of hunting for a mythical wider audience, their stuff won't be as grimdark edgy as in the past. Sorry!
Nevermind, I am quite happy with the quality of Adventure Paths, but I am still on Skull & Shackles. Rules for second edition are quite solid and might convert previous APs to 2e. Got extra time here because of the lock down.
I simply abhor unnecessary retcons on principle, they take away from the inmersion on the setting. They make it feel less like a living breathing world and a product of passion and more like something cold cynical designed by focus group to sell copies.
Although, thanks for props, I might remove the Gods & Magic from my amazon cart.
Humbly,
Yawar
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I simply abhor unnecessary retcons on principle, they take away from the inmersion on the setting. They make it feel less like a living breathing world and a product of passion and more like something cold cynical designed by focus group to sell copies.
What makes a retcon unnecessary?
Paizo adventures are cynically designed to sell copies. Their role as commodities by far takes precedence over their role (or indeed merit, which is minimal) as art. If editorial tinkering with a status quo you have sacralized disrupts the illusion that Paizo adventures are primarily art, that is a good thing.
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*blink blink*
I wasn't alienated at all by Dark Souls 2, I don't really know anyone who was.
< own's Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3, and Bloodborne.
As for not "Grim Dark" enough, the First AP had an issue that dealt with slavers, and had an article/bestiary dealing with Velstracs (ya'know the fiends obsessed with torture), with the finale of the AP as a whole cumulating in a possible genocide if the players fail.
There's still serious matters, and dire circumstances in the setting and adventures. The gratuitous edge has been filed off a bit, but the legitimate edge is still there.
Changelings and Harpies and their genitalia have nothing to do with grimdark as well.
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And Age of Sigmar is the best Warhammer ever.No, you are not. You have been here since 2007, grognard.
In this context, the "wider audience" references the potential customer that you could get if you remove ¨niche¨ (as in not appealing to the mainstream, edgy content) or ¨gatekeeping¨ content (as in dumb it down).
The ¨Mythical¨ part refers to the fact that many companies end up changing the soul of the product so much that they end up alienating the core fandom which made them popular in the first place. Examples include:
- Dark Souls 2
- Warhamer: Age of Sigmar
- Total War
- Dead Space 3
- D&D: 4th edition
Yawar,
Only took them several years and and basically reworking most of it
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Not really, it was side snide, but I felt compelled to elaborate upon request of a fellow old soldier who has travel farther and wider upon this lands.
What worries me is that it might become a trend and not see a "Grim dark" take on the setting like Second Darkness or Rise of the Runelords. Those APs had scenes that were deeply disturbing and put stakes that felt more ominous than loosing a PC to death.Humbly,
Yawar
Rise of the Runelords is unchanged and canonically happened as it happened. They probably won't be duplicating Hook Mountain Massacre's gore going forward, and will certainly have a warning label if they do, but they never duplicated that in PF1 either, and ogres certainly retain all of their awful habits in PF2.
Second Darkness's retcons have nothing to do with it being 'grimdark' and everything to do with it not portraying a specific culture in the way the creative director intended (and some pacing and expectation issues).
And recent APs have had some pretty heavy content when examined (I'm told Hell in Hell's Rebels is legitimately horrifying). Heck, even in PF2 already there are mentions of the following acts by villains in the two APs thus far:
1. A child's tongue being cut out repeatedly to keep her silent (it keeps regrowing...she's not human).
2. Slaves being drugged to keep them docile, then drowned as a distraction to keep the PCs busy.
3. A teenager being 'groomed' by an older woman who then pursues a sexual relationship with him. This is presented as exactly as skeevy and abusive as you'd think it would be.
4. Keeping a pair of twins as slaves. Beating one whenever the other does something the villain dislikes.
5. Forcibly tattooing someone to make them a better sideshow exhibit.
And that's all off the top of my head.
All they've really changed for PF2, in terms of 'darkness', is that now truly extreme content will have a warning label. That's really pretty much it. And if not having warning labels is 'the soul of the game' to you...well, I'd once again say that makes you a very niche market. And a pretty unpleasant one.
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What makes a retcon unnecessary?
If the changes doesn't threatens the internal consistency of the canon. For example, axing the paladins of Asmodeus was a good thing.
Paizo adventures are cynically designed to sell copies. Their role as commodities by far takes precedence over their role (or indeed merit, which is minimal) as art. If editorial tinkering with a status quo you have sacralized disrupts the illusion that Paizo adventures are primarily art, that is a good thing.
I know so, but it doesn't feel like it. Don't confuse status quo with canon, making a time leap and giving a canon or ambiguous ending for each AP was genius. Again, adds to the believability of the setting and the illusion of it being something real.
How is editorial tinkering a good thing by itself?Humbly,
Yawar
Not really, it was side snide, but I felt compelled to elaborate upon request of a fellow old soldier who has travel farther and wider upon this lands.
What worries me is that it might become a trend and not see a "Grim dark" take on the setting like Second Darkness or Rise of the Runelords. Those APs had scenes that were deeply disturbing and put stakes that felt more ominous than loosing a PC to death.Humbly,
YawarRise of the Runelords is unchanged and canonically happened as it happened. They probably won't be duplicating Hook Mountain Massacre's gore going forward, and will certainly have a warning label if they do, but they never duplicated that in PF1 either, and ogres certainly retain all of their awful habits in PF2.
Second Darkness's retcons have nothing to do with it being 'grimdark' and everything to do with it not portraying a specific culture in the way the creative director intended (and some pacing and expectation issues).
And recent APs have had some pretty heavy content when examined (I'm told Hell in Hell's Rebels is legitimately horrifying). Heck, even in PF2 already there are mentions of the following acts by villains in the two APs thus far:
1. A child's tongue being cut out repeatedly to keep her silent (it keeps regrowing...she's not human).
2. Slaves being drugged to keep them docile, then drowned as a distraction to keep the PCs busy.
3. A teenager being 'groomed' by an older woman who then pursues a sexual relationship with him. This is presented as exactly as skeevy and abusive as you'd think it would be.
4. Keeping a pair of twins as slaves. Beating one whenever the other does something the villain dislikes.
5. Forcibly tattooing someone to make them a better sideshow exhibit.And that's all off the top of my head.
All they've really changed for PF2, in terms of 'darkness', is that now truly extreme content will have a warning label. That's really pretty...
Thanks, is good to know.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Thanks, is good to know.
You're quite welcome. I think a lot of people have assumed that Paizo is 'going soft' based on them making the warning label thing explicit and spread that rumor to a lot of other people, like you, who just haven't looked at the last few APs, so I always try and correct that impression when it comes up.
For the RotRL stuff, I'd be shocked if that sort of thing didn't continue going forward. Sympathetic and horrifying villain backstories do not seem to be going anywhere.
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Yeah, don't assume that the fact that we're putting content warning labels on our products means that they're not going to be as gritty and dark. We're just being more responsible about them. I'm working on a haunted house adventure for publication early in 2021 and it's going to be one of the creepier, more disturbing adventures I've done, for example. It'll certainly have a warning label, but it won't be cuddly.
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Yeah, don't assume that the fact that we're putting content warning labels on our products means that they're not going to be as gritty and dark. We're just being more responsible about them. I'm working on a haunted house adventure for publication early in 2021 and it's going to be one of the creepier, more disturbing adventures I've done, for example. It'll certainly have a warning label, but it won't be cuddly.
… it's gonna have clowns isn't it >_>
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Creative Director
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Yeah, don't assume that the fact that we're putting content warning labels on our products means that they're not going to be as gritty and dark. We're just being more responsible about them. I'm working on a haunted house adventure for publication early in 2021 and it's going to be one of the creepier, more disturbing adventures I've done, for example. It'll certainly have a warning label, but it won't be cuddly.… it's gonna have clowns isn't it >_>
Eeew... nope!
I suspect I'll be able to chat a little more about this adventure in a few months. I think it was going to be announced at Gen Con time, and sorta leaked out at Paizocon. More to come!
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Yeah, don't assume that the fact that we're putting content warning labels on our products means that they're not going to be as gritty and dark. We're just being more responsible about them. I'm working on a haunted house adventure for publication early in 2021 and it's going to be one of the creepier, more disturbing adventures I've done, for example. It'll certainly have a warning label, but it won't be cuddly.… it's gonna have clowns isn't it >_>Eeew... nope!
I suspect I'll be able to chat a little more about this adventure in a few months. I think it was going to be announced at Gen Con time, and sorta leaked out at Paizocon. More to come!
Yay!
You're quite welcome. I think a lot of people have assumed that Paizo is 'going soft' based on them making the warning label thing explicit and spread that rumor to a lot of other people, like you, who just haven't looked at the last few APs, so I always try and correct that impression when it comes up.
For the RotRL stuff, I'd be shocked if that sort of thing didn't continue going forward. Sympathetic and horrifying villain backstories do not seem to be going anywhere.
On the contrary, an informed consumer is a satisfied consumer.
Like I said before, I was complaining about the 1E to 2E being a retcon more than just time skip proper. Unnecessary retcons and retcons without narrative justifications are a big pet peeve of mine, story progression is fine.- They muddle the lingua franca. Conversations regarding the setting/ canon presume a common understanding the same.
- They subtract from the verisimilitude of the setting. Part of the enjoyment of work fiction is the suspension of disbelieve which allows us to become invested in the narrative. However, the presence of retcons acts as meta reminder of its ficticios nature.
My impressions were based on based on a fellow poster's statements. Respected him so much that I didn't think he would be making such gross exaggerations. My apologies I would do my best for it not to happen again.
Humbly,
Yawar
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So, in multiple books the Aiudara (permanent portals created by the elves) are sometimes called "Elf Gates", and notes that most elves find this term offensive but never explains why. So, why do they?Because the elves see these portals as being something that all ancestries can use to spread diversity and bring distant regions and worlds together, and calling them "elf gates" implies that they're only used by elves and that the elves don't want them to be used by anyone else.
This doesn't really make sense to me, as calling them "elf gates" gives the elves credit for creating them, which I would think they would like. I know if I invented something cool I would want to put my name on it some how (either by just calling it (my name) (thing) or making a play on words involving my name.)