My advice? Figure out their income/expected WBL at the current level. All that they want to get in total adds up to 10-20% of whatever that number is.
Leave the price at that number, so that when they level up and start making more money, the price of their accommodations starts to seem less and less like something to worry about, giving them a sense of advancement.
Especially if they're still lower level, where new gear every level is less important.
Use the profession skill as a baseline.
1 check per week earns double the result in credits. Assuming a decent but not excellent score in the relevant modifier (say 14) and a level 1 means probably an average check of 16 and a weekly income of 32 credits. A low rent apartment should probably be priced around 8 credits a month (25% of monthly income).
Cheap storefront/office space should probably be around 16 credits a month.
Docking fees for the ship should be based on a similar metric as renting an apartment but multiplied by the ship's maximum crew.
I'd set another two tiers of luxury for accommodations and offices using an average result for level 5 and level 10 profession checks.
No problem! Glad I could help
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...really dude? Here too?
...really dude? Here too?Also, it's mighty early, but this legit made spray a little coffee at my monitors. Thanks for the morning laugh!
I was literally thinking to myself that I better get in with some helpful advice that actually addresses the spirit of the request before the thread was derailed entirely. Looks like I just got it in.
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I mean, he's not totally wrong. Starfinder isn't built to have a realistic functioning economy.
Fortunately, not everyone needs to or wants to care if all the NPCs in the universe can afford to eat. I think most people will just say "And the npcs didn't die of starvation, because the GM said so." Then, now that we can all breathe more easily knowing the millions of NPCs that we'll never meet are fine, we can get back to playing the game.
Beyond that? Money is maddeningly tight for players, given the things they need to buy and the sweet tech-toys they want to buy. Adding in more costs, such as spaceship upkeep, docking fees, refueling, etc, is only going to make this worse. Personally, after playing a fair amount of Starfinder, I wouldn't play in a game with extra money sinks, unless the players' income was also increased, at which point I'd say "Why are the players and the GM doing all this extra bookkeeping and math to end up in the same position as we were before the money sinks?"
That said, I wouldn't want to be in the test run, but I'd absolutely try a Starfinder where someone re-worked the entire economy from the ground up to see how it went.
You're right, he's not wrong about a few things. Increasingly my problem is that good ol'Ixie is dismissive and insulting with his posts and refuses to acknowledge points outside of his incredibly narrow definition of Good and Fun.
As has been noted time and again, Starfinder is distinctly not a simulationist game and was never intended as such. Trying to force a realistic simulation of an economy into place now, after the game has been balanced and supplementary material has been released, is a bit mad. A complete rework of the economy would essentially require a new edition of the game with completely new rules for handling and distributing wealth and I don't think would really add anything to it.
In the original post, Vertasi specified they wanted reasonable figures that could be used to approximate these strains on the PCs' pockets. Now, I don't particularly relish the idea of all that bookkeeping myself but having bills start to pile up could give a nicely realistic reason for the party to look for riskier work.
I also based it off Profession for exactly that reason. If one or two PCs sank some ranks in a profession skill, got the relevant mental stat higher than average, and picked out the right gear, they could easily handle the bills for the party.
You can either add in expenses that are too low for characters over level 3 or 4 to really care about. 50 credits for a level 1 character is pretty meaningful. It’s space change you find on the floor of your car for a level 5 character.
See, I think this is actually the right idea. Yes, a couple levels in, it becomes busywork, and unless you're gonna create some corporation building rules or something unique like that, best to just hand wave it.
But, from previous campaigns in other systems, building a base and spending money on it can be a good amount of fun. Level 1-3 of the campaign is your party desperately trying to make more money than WBL so they can afford rent and fuel.
Level 4-6, you start handwaving that aspect. They've bought the house, and the fuel can be bought by pawning their enemies' sidearms to the right shady businessmen.
At that point, when it stops being plot relevant, and starts becoming busywork, you just handwave it away. Your PC's holdings are secure from basic financial stress. It's time to move on to taking down the big bads.
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At that point, when it stops being plot relevant, and starts becoming busywork, you just handwave it away. Your PC's holdings are secure from basic financial stress. It's time to move on to taking down the big bads.
It's the sort of escalation you see in just about any long enough running series. One of my favorites, the Dresden Files, does a similar thing. Early on, things like the main character making enough to pay his rent and stay fed were about as important as actually progressing the plot but midway through the series, it really stops being an issue. Of course, by then the main character has progressed from solving weird murders to saving the city.
Having it be more relevant to lower level characters but providing a method of shunting it into the background can be practical and narratively useful. Never underestimate mundane pressures before you raise the stakes.
Also, I really like the idea of a bunch of people who come together under the banner of 'Not being evicted' being responsible for saving the galaxy.
You can either add in expenses that are too low for characters over level 3 or 4 to really care about. 50 credits for a level 1 character is pretty meaningful. It’s space change you find on the floor of your car for a level 5 character.See, I think this is actually the right idea. Yes, a couple levels in, it becomes busywork, and unless you're gonna create some corporation building rules or something unique like that, best to just hand wave it.
But, from previous campaigns in other systems, building a base and spending money on it can be a good amount of fun. Level 1-3 of the campaign is your party desperately trying to make more money than WBL so they can afford rent and fuel.
Level 4-6, you start handwaving that aspect. They've bought the house, and the fuel can be bought by pawning their enemies' sidearms to the right shady businessmen.
At that point, when it stops being plot relevant, and starts becoming busywork, you just handwave it away. Your PC's holdings are secure from basic financial stress. It's time to move on to taking down the big bads.
I like this approach as well. It emphasizes the narrative purpose of the rules hack while simultaneously adjusting for the inevitable skewing of the numbers that will occur at higher levels; all without performing a major overhaul of the entire game system.
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Although still in an embryonic stage, this past week I've been tinkering with ideas for grafting d20 Modern's wealth system to Starfinder. I get the impression that I'm in a minority of people who see entertainment value in that particular game mechanic, but the more I thought about things I prefer about d20 Modern/Future and wish had been incorporated in Starfinder, the more the system of wealth checks appealed to me.
I acknowledge the system has drawbacks and that it won't appeal to everyone, so I'm not suggesting it as an idea to "fix" Starfinder. The way I'm currently looking at using it will be to reflect exactly the kinds of mundane financial interactions that Vertasi brought up in the original question. My goal is to avoid minute bookkeeping on the one hand but to provide a quick, flexible game mechanic on the other that abstractly simulates the use of credit, savings, and other modern financial tools for a variety of things like those Vertasi mentions.
This system would exist parallel to the existing system which, many have argued, is, itself, more of an abstract resource balancing system for the PCs than a simulated way for representing economic activity.
If I'm successful, and it flows smoothly during game play without too much wrangling or fuss, it will give me a foothold on my larger ambitions to fuse more material from d20 Modern/Future into Starfinder.
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Now that would be something I'd like to see, especially if it is light on the bookkeeping. Finding an alternate method for handling and tracking assets in a homebrew game would be very nice to have.
I disagree with using a profession check for a baseline.
With your ability to walk into any station or village and just use profession for a week to earn some money, it feels more like freelancing, Uber driving, or being a day laborer; profession (corporate attorney) pays the same as profession (ditch digger).
I assume most people with normal jobs in Starfinder are paid a better salary or hourly rate than a profession check would indicate.
For abstracting cost of living, I like the Shadowrun lifestyle system:
Obviously, a character has to pay the cost of their lifestyle(s) each month. Prepayments can be made for any number of months, but landlords are highly unlikely to refund the money later.
If a payment is missed there is a chance that the character will end up losing the lifestyle. Each time a payment is missed, roll a d6. If the result is greater than the number of consecutive months of payments missed, then the landlord has let them slide, for now. Payments must still be made up later, however. If the die result is less than or equal to the number of months missed, the character is out the door. If this is not the primary lifestyle, then the unit is lost. If the character missed payments on their primary lifestyle, downgrade the lifestyle one level. This represents the character having some items repossessed, seized, and/or sold in order to forcibly pay debts, and they are evicted from wherever they are living. At the gamemaster’s discretion, the character may also still owe some of the back rent to some kind of creditor. This may be a legit bank or loan company, or someone more unscrupulous such as a loan shark or criminal syndicate.
Overall, dealing with the character’s lifestyle is more of a roleplaying opportunity than anything else. Gamemasters and players are encouraged to make an interesting and dramatic story out of the situation.
Lifestyle Categories
Cost: 100,000 credits a month and up!
Cost: 10,000 credits a month
Cost: 5,000 credits a month
Cost: 2,000 credits a month
Cost: 500 credits a month
Cost: Hey pal, life ain’t all bad. It’s free.
Cost: 500 credits a day for basic care, 1,000 credits a day for intensive care.
First off, that's a very limited view of what the profession skill really means. Adding ranks in your profession skill reflects a lot of things, what it doesn't mean however, is a strictly linear progression. Sure someone with 1 rank in Profession Ditch Digger (something I wouldn't allow at my table, that would fall under Construction) might be a deft hand with a shovel but four or five ranks in and they know how to operate specialist equipment and probably organize a work site. It does not mean that they, personally, just get faster with a shovel.
Similarly, a rank 1 Attorney might aspire to work for big corporate clients but they definitely haven't earned the reputation or gained the skills to attract such clients. They'd either be doing scut-work for bigger firms or taking much smaller cases.
You're right about it being more for gig-type work but my assumption had always been that a salary was better represented by essentially taking 10 with the skill with more lucrative positions represented by a higher number.
Your lifestyles, however, are exorbitantly expensive. The Streets and Squatting are strictly worse options than the already available lodging options in the CRB. With as tight as money is in Starfinder, I could not see any of my players willingly engaging in it. Buying out squatter accommodations is something that isn't possible until level 10 if you're sticking to the standard wealth-by-level chart.
Yeah, that's because those are the prices for Shadowrun; completely different game economy.
Yeah, that's because those are the prices for Shadowrun; completely different game economy.
Ah, I thought since they used the term 'credits' there'd already been some conversions done. Taking a stab at it, I'd say at least a reduction by 1/10 for the prices might be in order. The option to buy out a lifestyle would be a nice touch as there is no real option for property ownership in Starfinder as far as I know.
I disagree with using a profession check for a baseline.
With your ability to walk into any station or village and just use profession for a week to earn some money, it feels more like freelancing, Uber driving, or being a day laborer; profession (corporate attorney) pays the same as profession (ditch digger).
I assume most people with normal jobs in Starfinder are paid a better salary or hourly rate than a profession check would indicate.
For abstracting cost of living, I like the Shadowrun lifestyle system:
** spoiler omitted **...
Hospitalized:
This special lifestyle applies only when a character is sick or injured. The character is confined to a hospital: a real one, a clinic equipped as a hospital, or a private location with the necessary equipment. Characters cannot own this lifestyle. They only pay for it until they get well or go broke, whichever comes first.
Cost: 500 credits a day for basic care, 1,000 credits a day for intensive care.
Long Term Medical Treatment costs 100 credits per day as listed in the Armory book. With high end or luxury facilities costing 2 to 10 times as much.
Using this as a baseline, your prices are probably 5x what they should be. 100/month for squatter, 400/month for low, 1000/month middle, 5000/month for high (changed to make it fit the difference better), and 20,000+/month for luxury.
This also puts it a lot closer to what is available on the Lodging table of the corebook. As 3 poor meals per day, plus sleep pod for a month adds up to 120 credits, and that is effectively squatter level.
While poor is closer to having 3 common meal per day plus efficiency lodgings for a month add up to 360 credits, so there is that...
Nicely done. Though I will point out that a week of field rations is 1 credit, and thus much cheaper than poor meals for the lower lifestyles.
Still, a good starting place for price conversion. I'll have to see how that applies that to the 200+ pages of shadowrun conversions I already have.
When our group started playing years ago I made the player's (and I also did) track have gold, silver and bronze piece they spent. Every meal, every drink, etc....
It dawned on me one day that WFT was I doing? I do this in real life why in the world to I want to do it in our escape world??
I didn't and my player's didn't.
So I changed to the once a month lifestyle payment. The in between adventure roleplaying got so much better and creative is none of the players had to worry about tracking every coin spent.
Additionally the players never abuse this and actually lived (roleplayed) within the means that they paid for a monthly basis.
So I have carried this over to Starfinder.
As for NPCs. In my games the NPC's economy is based off common sense and NPCs have possessions and lifestyles based on their jobs / backgrounds.
So when the PCs go into a dive bar the appropriate individuals will be in that dive bar, all with the appropriate possessions given where they find themselves.
The PCs go into a fine hotel, same thing, the hotel has the appropriate mix of individuals in it that are appropriate to the setting.
The equipment guide and prices are for PCs.
The PCs live in a completely different existence from the millions, billions (trillions??) of NPCs that inhabit the universe.
Trying to apply PC economics to NPCs just leads to frustration and disappointment.