Character Creation Variant
Hope youll understand my notes, english its not my native language.Sorry!
Due too the very rigid character creation in terms on that you need specifik "best" race for specifik class and that your class always get the same skills in what you are good, the game become rather static and rigid.
I have therefore created this variant for more freedom and flexibility.
Basicly you start with 10 in all attributes and allocate 18pts-
(Min four 12s and max one 18 attribute.
(Ancestry, background, class & free stats at creation do not longer generate attribute points).
This make it possible to pick any race for any class without the need to feel you picked a poor choice. Also for balance purpose the races with little race abilities get a short amount of compliment points to balance them.
You can buy a flawed character one +2 and one -2 to attribute but it now cost one ancestery feat. (still max one 18 however.
A flawed attribute also gives less talent points, see below.
Secondly the big difference instead of a fixed attribute value to your skill you get a total number of talent points based on your total attributes that you can allocate freely on your skills up to max 4.
The gain in this is that characters get the freedom to create unique and fun characters without upsetting the balance of the game.
Information changes in regard to normal rules for balance as follow:
Attributes
(Ancestry, background, class & free stats at creation do not longer generate attribute points)
Strength Forced march or fatigue roll you use the strength attribute
Dexterity You use dexterity for initiative
Intelligence Intelligence attribute now also affect lore abilities
Charisma Charisma attribute now affect talent points
Skill
Insight New skill (Used vs Deception or Performance, targets choise)
Lore All lore abilities use the same lore skill!
(That is for every lore you have you use the same lore skill for them)
Perception (No longer include initiative & Insight)
Thievery
(Dexterity value ability modifier is max possible skill talent allocation)
(That is you can’t have higher in your talent for thievery than your dexterity attribute bonus)
Feats
Flawed Ancestry Feat: gain +2 pts one stat -2 one stat. A negative attribute affect talent point gained
Talented General Feat: You get 2 extra talent points. Charisma 12 is required.
NPC have the normal rules stat and class allocation. Only the Heroes use this rules.
• Allocate attribute 18 pts (see Below)
• Chose Ancestry
• Chose Ancestry complements if you ancestry get balance points
(see Below)
• Chose Background (Only get skill, skill feat, skill trainings)
• Choose Class
• Allocate skills points based on attribute in intelligence, ancestry,
class and backgrounds.
• Allocate feats and abilities based on ancestry, class and backgrounds.
• Allocate your total talent points based on your attributes on your
skills. (See below)
(Talent points are flexible points based on your character stats instead of the normal fixed values)
Attributes
10 in all attributes + 18 pts to allocate(Min four 12 stats and max one 18 (Even with feat flawed)
(Ancestry, background, class & free stats do not longer generate stat points)
Ancestry Feat: Flawed +2 pts one stat -2 one stat. A negative attribute affect talent point gained.
Talents (Instead of the normal fixed attribute allocation for skills)
Skill talents points at start. (Max four in a talent)
Strength attribute x2
Dexterity attribute x3
Constitution attribute x0
Intelligence attribute x 5
Wisdom attribute x5
Charisma attribute x5 and bonus attribute x1.
An 8 in an attribute affect as follow.
Strength attribute 8, - 2 talent points.
Dexterity attribute 8, -3 talent points.
Constitution attribute 8, -0 talent points.
Intelligence attribute 8, - 5 talent point. (And lose one lore ability & skill point and one language).
(If that would require you to lose common you keep it but cannot read & write)
Wisdom attribute 8, - 5 talent points.
Charisma attribute8, -5 talent point s and a further -1 talent point.
Total your talent points based on your attributes and you can then allocate them freely to the skills
Important Thievery (Dexterity value ability modifier is max possible skill talent allocation)
When you gain an attribute increase you also gain additional skill talents based on your increased attribute allocation. You may only increase a talent one point per skill at each attribute increase time.
You may now have max 5 in a talent.
Strength attribute +2
Dexterity attribute +3
Constitution attribute +-0
Intelligence attribute + 5
Wisdom attribute +5
Charisma attribute +5 and bonus attribute +1.
Ancestries
Your race gets ancestry compliment points to spend to balance the races in accordance with start abilities.
(Ancestries with lowlight from start that can gain Darkvision by heritage gain +1pts to buy compliments for)
Race (Starvalue pts) Extra point to buy for
Dwarf 3pts +1pts
Elf 4pts +0pts
Gnome 2 pts +2pts
Goblin 3pts +1pts
Half-Elf 2 pts +2pts
Halfling 0 pts +4 pts
Half-Orc 2 pts +2pts
Hobgoblin 4pts +0pts
Human 1pts +3 pts
Leshy 2pts +2pts
Lizardfolk 2pts +2pts
Shoony 1pt +3 pts
Ancestry compliments you can buy based on your bonus point
1pt Hp+2 (Max 10)
1pt Skill feat
1pt 2 extra languages
1pt 2 Lore abilities
3pt Dual Background (Human & Halfling only)
Heritage All ancesteries as normal gain one heritage.
Physical attributes
Str 10 (Forced march & carry capacity)
Dex 10 (Initiative. Ref save)
Con 10 (Hp, Fort save, disease & poison save)
Mental attributes
Int 10 (Extra lore abilities, skill points, & languages)
Wis 10 (Will save)
Cha 10 (Extra talent points)
Skills
Acrobatic
Athletics
Craft
Perception (No longer initiative & Insight)
Stealth
Survival (Camp. cover track, track, sense direction, foraging)
Thievery (Dexterity value ability modifier is max possible skill talent allocation)
Deception
Diplomacy
Insight (new skill)
Intimidation
Lore (Same skill is used for all Lore abilities you have obtained)
Medicine
Perform
Society (Social structures, history, culture, forgery, decipher writing)
Arcana
Nature
Occultism
Religion
Let me know if you have any questions. Have fun!
Forgot to write
Initiative
Dexterity attribute bonus & Proficiency (the same as your perception)
If you stealth you use that skill as your initiative.
First off - I want to note that I think the race selection way more free then in PF1, you can even pull off a character that has a flaw on a key score - which was basically an invitation for a horrible experience in the first game
Secondly: I probably didn't understand everything right and don't intend to rip apart your concept but after a first fleeting glance I think I have a lot of points to say to this. Consider them something to think about.
1. I see no reason why forced march should be a strength based check instead of fortitude
2. Lore is already influenced by intelligence
3. Insight as new skill - okay I can understand that but I think it is well covered with perception. And what would it use to use the skill against performance?
4. Lore grouped makes sense with craft and performance grouped, on the other hand is the skill waaaaay to wide to make this really appliccable
5.Thievery max skill point allocation - why only thievery? and maybe this should be noted after how skill point allocation works (forwards reference is...clumsy)
6. I don't understand what the correlation between charisma and talents is supposed to be
7.'A negative attribute affect talent point gained.' is very clumsy wording, can you explain and/or rephrase that?
8.the +2 to two stats and -2 on one is without limits what stats, while this allows some freedom I think it would make ancestries less distinct
9. talent points are like skill points in pf1?
10. what is the difference between charismas 5+1 bonus attribute/talent vs just having 6
11. also the terms you use seem to be randomly exchanged, it makes following the text very hard
12. It might be me but I don't get how the bonus points for races are supposed to work
13.punctuation is somewhat irregular, it might help reading if you check that too
14. my first impression is that races would loose a lot of their distinctiveness and become ... well, some kind of proto-matter in the form of whatever race you want to play, this also seems very complicated - it is more free from what I can tell, I give you that one
Thank you for your input in depth. I appreciate that.
Not to worry, I appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Let me answer as to your thoughts one by one.
Your first note
"First off - I want to note that I think the race selection way more free then in PF1, you can even pull off a character that has a flaw on a key score - which was basically an invitation for a horrible experience in the first game"
yes that is true but still there is that issue that lacking that vital +2 in the right attribute just make some races better suited for certain classes, something I and my group just think unlogical hence this variant. It doesnt make the races any better or worse than they currently are but make it a option to pick any race you like play without the need to consider a best "race"
1. I see no reason why forced march should be a strength based check instead of fortitude
Thats in purely of balancing and logical reasons. As it is now all classes buy Con. That means physical classes that really should be good in force march and similiar situations are just about equal the mental classes not better as they logical should be. So thats why putting force march under strength makes more sense in terms of gamebalance. If you just look at what the attribute as such I agree that con is per definition the more correct attribute.
That said another option would have been making it str & con to make it more in tune with the attribute, but I just thought it easier doing only str.
Maybe for more sense the str & con combined is a better way in regard to this.
2. Lore is already influenced by intelligence
Yes with current rules but with talent point you can choose your own value 0-4 for the attribute skill value for lore. Lores are also very situational at best and seldom used in game. Making Int attribute get extra lore and all lore use the same skill (lore) give Int some boost in this matter and this is based on game balance. If Int doesnt have extra language, skill point and lore, wisdom will always be a better choice for those classes that doesnt need Int for class purposes because the save it gives.
3. Insight as new skill - okay I can understand that but I think it is well covered with perception. And what would it use to use the skill against performance?
This is done by game balancing reason, Perception as it is are way to good skill to keep as it is.
Thats also the reason I withdrow the initiative from the perception skill. With Initiativ and insight withdrawn from perception I found it more in balance to other skills, it is that said still very good.
4. Lore grouped makes sense with craft and performance grouped, on the other hand is the skill waaaaay to wide to make this really appliccable
Not really, as already said Lore is very situational and seldom used. Normally a character might have some crafts and lores.
Using craft, lore or performance as specifik group skills for this I dont find it to good. I would actually be surprised if they was to be used that much anyway.
5.Thievery max skill point allocation - why only thievery? and maybe this should be noted after how skill point allocation works (forwards reference is...clumsy)
Yes I am sorry for my english,it is as said not my native langauge and writing makes it even harder for me. Ill try to explain.
Skill points with trained and profficency works just like it do now in the current rules. (NO CHANGE)
What I have changed is the "fixed" attribute numbers to respective skills. (Ex strength give athletic, dexterity give thievery)
That I have removed.
Instead basicly all skill attribute values are 0 at start.
Instead of the fixed skill attributes values you get "Talent points" based on your choosen attributes" in total that you can allocate free as you like on the skills.
These free talent points replace the fixed skill attribute numbers for the skills.
Why the Thivery skill has this requirment is because otherwise all classes could put 4 in Thievery and neglect dex and choose strength instead.
Now if you for example has 14 Dex you can at max have a +2 attribute value in Thievery, that said you dont need to apply up to +2 if you dont need to but you can.
If you on the other hand have 18 in Dex you would be able to have up to +4 attribute value in Thievery.
This make only those with max dexterity 18 those that can get maximum in Thievery something I think is good for game balance.
6. I don't understand what the correlation between charisma and talents is supposed to be
The talent points are instead of the fixed skill attribute values.
that you get by your attribute to give together with your proffiency your total value. By giving charisma some extra oost in this regard the value of charisma make it valuable in game balance compared to wisdom and Int.
7.'A negative attribute affect talent point gained.' is very clumsy wording, can you explain and/or rephrase that?
Yes sorry for my english once again.
This means that if you choose to buy the ancestry feat flawed, you get +2 on a attribute and a -2 attribute.
That would decrese a attribute in a negative manner and therefore impact your total talent point you have.
8.the +2 to two stats and -2 on one is without limits what stats, while this allows some freedom I think it would make ancestries less distinct
I agree but this is made for game balancing. If you want a race with a flawed attribute you can choose to have that.
9. talent points are like skill points in pf1?
Talent points are what you in current game would be what you apply to the skills from your attributes.
But instead of a fixed value to a specifik skill you get a toal value that you freely can allocate.
Skill points are what you get from your profficenct and level.
10. what is the difference between charismas 5+1 bonus attribute/talent vs just having 6
It is the same, it is just written like that so people see it is a bonus.
11. also the terms you use seem to be randomly exchanged, it makes following the text very hard
I guess this is due to my bad english.
12. It might be me but I don't get how the bonus points for races are supposed to work
You pick a race.
All races then have two values based of what they start with and what they can get for the extra points some have for balance purpose.
First value is what they get by picking the race in term of value. it is just there for a value estimate. Maybe it would be better get rid of it.
Second value is the point you can buy some extra perk for.
Some races dont have extra points because they alrd gotten so much at start.
EX
Goblin get value of 3pts (race abilities) same what they get now in game, here you do not need do anything.
and have +1pts to buy extra perk for.
Human 1pts +3 pts
get value of 1pts (race abilities) same what they get now in game, here you do not need do anything.
and have +3pts to buy extra perk for.
This is for balance the races somewhat better.
13.punctuation is somewhat irregular, it might help reading if you check that too
Yes well I might need ask somewhat better than me in english writing to do that. I hope you can manage with this and that you can understand the concept.
14. my first impression is that races would loose a lot of their distinctiveness and become ... well, some kind of proto-matter in the form of whatever race you want to play, this also seems very complicated - it is more free from what I can tell, I give you that one.
No the races would be exactly what they are now in terms of apperance, social interaction and have the abilites their races should have. Only difference is that specifik +2 attribues are removed and that will allow you to pick any race together with any class you want to play without the need to feel bad for having tge wrong attribute bonus.
The extra point value some races get are just for balancing issues since some races just are plain better in normal rules.
Hope this clear some questions up, but maybe I have made it worse :-)
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You are aware of the core Additional Flaws rules, right? Even a gnome can start with 18 strength in this edition, which seems to nullify the need for like... Half of this.
If you feel like lore isn't being used enough.... You're the gm. Make more situations for it to come up. Same with people rolling things other than perception for initiative. Perception was decoupled from the skill system explicitly because it's so universally useful that if you don't boost it at every possible turn, you're holding yourself back. In this system you've proposed, I would feel the need to boost Insight at every possible opportunity.
You are aware of the core Additional Flaws rules, right? Even a gnome can start with 18 strength in this edition, which seems to nullify the need for like... Half of this.
If you feel like lore isn't being used enough.... You're the gm. Make more situations for it to come up. Same with people rolling things other than perception for initiative. Perception was decoupled from the skill system explicitly because it's so universally useful that if you don't boost it at every possible turn, you're holding yourself back. In this system you've proposed, I would feel the need to boost Insight at every possible opportunity.
Yes I am aware that this many good variants out there and you are free to use the ones you want.
I made this variant to make it more free and flexibel for players when it come to character creation and it works fine.Its not a problem include more lore rolls, the problem is that it is very situational and most lore just doesnt seem to have much use.
I agree with you that Perception was excluded from the skills because it was so usefull. To take away the initiative and insight from it, make perception more in line with the other skills albeit still good.
Making Insight its own skill doesnt make it more powerfull.
I am sure you and many other would buy it but many others would prefer other skills and thats the point of this variant of mine. That it lets player choose what skill they are good at when they create them.
Yeah given that every ancestry can get 18 in their core stat and all ancestries that dont have a -2 with exactly the same efficiency I just cannot see where that complaint comes from, this is even before we get into the fact that an 18 is a absolutely not required for lots of classes.
This is because that comes from another variant or optional rule.
It is not in the core rule.This variant of mine adress the race issue in regard some classes are better with specifik races, as well as give more freedom to character creation in terms what skills you as a player want your character be good at with.
You are free to choose use it or not as for all variants and optional rules :-)
Malk_Content
Well you are right in that it is written in the core book but it is as said still a optional rule.
You can use that as much as a variant, its up to the GM and players.
But just because there is a rule, a optional rule or variant doesnt mean you can not do more variant rules.
You choose to use what you like.
For me that is a increased freedom in creating the characters when it comes to race and skill. To make them balanced in line with the rules but also unique and fun to play towards what the player want to do,
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The option isn't a variant, the choice isn't whether the table will use it at all. The optional aspect is whether a player wants to do it for their character as part of figuring out their stats.
It's only "optional" because as a player you don't have to do it, but it's always available. This isn't a tomato to-mah-to situation with something like Automatic Bonus Progression.
Well for me there is core rules that are intendent to be used.
You can however change them as well, making houserules.
Then there is the optional rules that are in the core books. these are rules that the GM can allow or not and the player use if allowed by the Gm if they want. Still being optional they are up for debate if they are to be allowed into the game and therefore not the same as core rules. Thats why they are called optional rules.
Variants is taking existing rules and change them so it better fits how you want the rules to work. Like in my case I want more freedom for the players when they create their characters.
Houserules are more including more rules that you see the need for into the game, maybe to get more depth.
But this has now become more about core, optional and variant.
For me that is up to the Gm and players what they want to use and not really why I started this thread.
This thread is really about using a more flexible character creation variant with more freedom when it comes to pick the races and a lot more freedom when it comes where you want allocate your characters attribute points toward their skills.
Use it if you like it and if not, dont. Easy as that :-)
Have fun!