I am looking to build a rogue\fighter but I would really like to find a way to somehow maintain the rogues sneak attack progression while taking the levels in fighter since that is probably where most of the damage output is going to come from. Is there some way to do this, even if it is at a reduced rate? The only thing I am aware of is the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat, but it doesn't look like you can take it more than once (which I would be happy to do if I could). Is there any way to do this?
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Have you considered the Slayer class? It is essentially a Rogue/Ranger hybrid.
Alternatively, the Venomblade Fighter archetype gets sneak attack at 6th and every 4 levels thereafter.
Ninja and Unchained Rogue are also things you should consider, as they are generally better in combat than the base Rogue.
You could also mix in one level dips into various archetypes and prestige classes that give sneak attack at 1st level; Eldritch Poisoner Alchemist, Snakebite Striker Brawler, Greensting Slayer Magus, Gray Gardener, Inner Sea Pirate, Master Spy, Pathfinder Field Agent, Red Mantis Assassin, Sleepless Detective, etc.
Finally, certain deities like Shax and Tanagaar give extra sneak attack dice through the Deific Obedience feat.
Easy.
Take 3 levels of Weapon Master Fighter, because that's all you need for Weapon Training.
Take Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
Go back into UnChained Rogue/Ninja.
Enjoy.
I would suggest Slayer. Sneak Attack, Full BAB, Studied Target, and you're not entirely dependent on Sneak Attack damage to be relevant. If you really really want Sneak Attack Dice you could also Variant Multiclass into Rogue by losing half your feats(Which is kinda like using 5 feats for rogue stuff).
I've wanted to build a knife thrower for a really long time and I am taking the time to do it now. The build I am looking to try to make work is a Knife Master Scout UC Rogue. The issue (and trick) of the build is that, whenever you charge, and later whenever you move more than 10 feet, you get your sneak attack on one attack. However, when you charge, or move more than 10 feet, you can only make one attack, so you lose the benefit of all your off hand, extra, iterative, etc attacks. So, I've been scouring the books looking for a way to get over this, that is to say, I've been looking for a way to get something close to pounce for my knife thrower. The best I've found is the Rapid Attack ability that the Mobile Fighter has, but you need to take 11 levels in the archetype to get to it. Taking that many levels in fighter is really going to nerf my sneak attack damage, which is kind of what the whole build it built around. So, I am trying to find a way to make this all work!
I think Sneak Attack is probably not the best way to go.
I have a knife-wielding Warpriest (Arsenal Chaplain) who works out alright.
Weapon training gives bonuses to hit (to offset TWF and Rapid Shot) and bonuses to damage (to offset terrible dagger damage). Then Divine Favour does the same again. You end up with slightly higher accuracy than the Fighter and with more damage buffs (as well as all your other spells).
I took throwing and melee feats, and got Improved Snap Shot and Rockochet Shot - you might as well take advantage of the good properties of a dagger if you're going to build around them.
It ends up with pretty decent damage in melee and at range (up to 50 feet), and gives you "reach" to deny space to enemies.
The downsides are that it takes ALL the feats (Human bonus feat, Warpriest bonus feats plus Human FCB feats).
It ends up basically matching the damage output of a reach weapon fighter with Power Attack (which is still perfectly acceptable damage, don't get me wrong). It does have a few extra tricks up its sleeves, but it's not going to win any online DPR competitions.
Note that the scout has a severe limitation: 'If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack.'
Anyway, riding something is the easy answer. Mounted move + missile full attack is fine.
Unfolding wind rush gives full attack with thrown weapons & movement. Downside: BAB +13 takes forever for a rogue.
Swift action movement isn't common in PF but it is possible. The wizard conjuration/teleportation school power (4 level dip for 10' range, or VMC wizard gives it at character level 7), or a 26K batrachian helm do swift action movement.
I think it's worth noting that there are other ways to get sneak attack, even with missile weapons.
Flying Blade Swashbuckler might also be worth considering.
I think the question to ask here is, what are you hoping to have from the Rogue class chassis?
Because we can probably suggest another class that will be competent in combat and probably be able to do the rogue stuff you want as well.
Well, like I said, the idea was to make a knife thrower. I know that a lot of different classes can do something like that, but I want to play a rogue for a number of reasons. Swashbuckler doesn't really appeal to me for flavor\RP reasons, I don't want to play a divine class because I play a lot of divine classes, and the party right now doesn't really have a stealth-er or a lock picker. I like to do something interesting with my builds also, try something I haven't done before, try to put something janky together and try to make it work, so the Scout\Knife Master build looked pretty interesting and could be made into a cool knife throwing build.
So you want to throw weapons. We can build around that, though we have some better options than throwing knives. Though we can find ways to improve knives too.
Stealth and disable device can be done as competently by anyone else as the rogue can. The rogue doesn't get anything particularly special with those skills.
Honestly, flavor of a class isn't fully baked in. You can RP a class just about any way you want. I know you say you don't want Swashbuckler but Flying Blade archetype would be a strict upgrade to what you plan.
Vigilante could also be good with the right selection of talents.
Think about sharding weapons. A thrown weapon with the sharding property or even adding the throwing quality to a weapon can make you effective at throwing virtually any weapon, though it can be expensive.
And pure fighter can do some good things with Advanced Weapon training. He can basically simulate the Warpriest weapon dice scaling damage as well as other options.
It's just a pain in the butt to get ranged sneak attack reliably without relying on items to get it, and starting with an archetype that restricts it to once per round isn't going to help with that problem.
The best I can do is variant multiclass wizard air/smoke so you can see through smoke and pick up obscuring mist as a rogue magic ability. Just be polite and use the ability to grant smoke vision to your allies.
The best way to "throw" daggers is probably as an aether kinticist, but that's probably not thematically appropriate.
It's also worth noting that sneak attack is really hard to pull off on ranged attacks, so making a ranged attack build on a class that relies on sneak attack for damage...isn't going to synergize well.
If the main thought is 'rogue knife thrower', I probably wouldn't use scout. Throwing knives is a short range thing and keeping improved uncanny dodge could be very handy. Here's how I might do it:
Traits: river rat & strong arm, supple wrist
1: point blank shot
Human: precise shot
Unchained rogue 1: weapon finesse
Rogue 2: weapon training (WF dagger)
3: two-weapon fighting
Rogue 4: combat trick (close quarters thrower)
5: false opening
Rogue 6: minor magic
Human FCB rogue talent: major magic (dazzling blade)
7: quick draw
Rogue 8: superior sniper (expert sniper)
9: improved TWF
It first really comes together at level 5. False opening will hopefully get you sneak attack when you can't otherwise arrange it. After that dazzling blade gives you another means of setting it up, and sniping maybe another.
A flying blade swashbuckler might use the startoss chain instead for reliable damage without sneak attack, and it's possible to make knife throwing work for a vigilante, warpriest, fighter or even a magus.
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It's just a pain in the butt to get ranged sneak attack reliably without relying on items to get it, and starting with an archetype that restricts it to once per round isn't going to help with that problem.
The best I can do is variant multiclass wizard air/smoke so you can see through smoke and pick up obscuring mist as a rogue magic ability. Just be polite and use the ability to grant smoke vision to your allies.
The best way to "throw" daggers is probably as an aether kinticist, but that's probably not thematically appropriate.
A variant “Mist Assassin” could be another option.
Basically you dip 1 level waves oracle for the water sight revelation and obscuring mist spell.Then you stay more than 5 ft. from your enemies and throw your knifes.
It's also worth noting that sneak attack is really hard to pull off on ranged attacks, so making a ranged attack build on a class that relies on sneak attack for damage...isn't going to synergize well.I feel like I've done it, but with knives.
There are builds that can do it, but to do it reliably required you to be around level 10 IIRC. It involved some length feat chains to do, but I can't remember the build off the top of my head.
It just always felt too late to come together in my opinion.
It's also worth noting that sneak attack is really hard to pull off on ranged attacks, so making a ranged attack build on a class that relies on sneak attack for damage...isn't going to synergize well.I feel like I've done it, but with knives.There are builds that can do it, but to do it reliably required you to be around level 10 IIRC. It involved some length feat chains to do, but I can't remember the build off the top of my head.
It just always felt too late to come together in my opinion.
Well this is one of the reasons I wanted to take Scout. It gives you a way to guarantee sneak attack at least on one attack. But losing the rest if your attacks is a pretty big bummer. That's why I was trying to find a way to maintain the multiple attacks while still exploiting the benefits from Scout
It's just a pain in the butt to get ranged sneak attack reliably without relying on items to get it, and starting with an archetype that restricts it to once per round isn't going to help with that problem.
The best I can do is variant multiclass wizard air/smoke so you can see through smoke and pick up obscuring mist as a rogue magic ability. Just be polite and use the ability to grant smoke vision to your allies.
The best way to "throw" daggers is probably as an aether kinticist, but that's probably not thematically appropriate.
A variant “Mist Assassin” could be another option.
Basically you dip 1 level waves oracle for the water sight revelation and obscuring mist spell.
Then you stay more than 5 ft. from your enemies and throw your knifes.
I prefer the wizard version for the ability to grant fog/smoke vision to allies as well.
Well this is one of the reasons I wanted to take Scout. It gives you a way to guarantee sneak attack at least on one attack. But losing the rest if your attacks is a pretty big bummer. That's why I was trying to find a way to maintain the multiple attacks while still exploiting the benefits from ScoutIt's also worth noting that sneak attack is really hard to pull off on ranged attacks, so making a ranged attack build on a class that relies on sneak attack for damage...isn't going to synergize well.I feel like I've done it, but with knives.There are builds that can do it, but to do it reliably required you to be around level 10 IIRC. It involved some length feat chains to do, but I can't remember the build off the top of my head.
It just always felt too late to come together in my opinion.
That's explicitly impossible, as the archetype specifies even if you find a way to get multiple attack it doesn't gain the benefit on subsequent attacks.
Honestly, I would just give up on sneak attack and choose another class that has better features for adding damage.
Not to mention that the rogue class doesn't have much in the way of attack bonuses, which are just as important as damage bonuses.
Well this is one of the reasons I wanted to take Scout. It gives you a way to guarantee sneak attack at least on one attack. But losing the rest if your attacks is a pretty big bummer. That's why I was trying to find a way to maintain the multiple attacks while still exploiting the benefits from ScoutThere are builds that can do it, but to do it reliably required you to be around level 10 IIRC. It involved some length feat chains to do, but I can't remember the build off the top of my head.
It just always felt too late to come together in my opinion.
My build above works from L5, Khan's from L2. A scout obviously isn't getting anything before L4 or their big trick before L8.
Imp COG is 3rd party though. And I've always suspected the writer of having a shaky grasp of PF rules and balance.
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Sorry, I should have clarified.
The level 10 statement was for a rogue only build with a means of getting sneak attack on multiple attacks in a round.
It involved circling mongoose, but I forget what else.
I hadn't seen Flase Attcker before, which is nifty. Though it does require you to have cover/concealment to keep using it.
And none of that really changes the fact that you could build another class that will do damage more consistently without Sneak Attack and with attack bonuses that will just generally be better.
If the main thought is 'rogue knife thrower', I probably wouldn't use scout. Throwing knives is a short range thing and keeping improved uncanny dodge could be very handy. Here's how I might do it:
** spoiler omitted **
It first really comes together at level 5. False opening will hopefully get you sneak attack when you can't otherwise arrange it. After that dazzling blade gives you another means of setting it up, and sniping maybe another.A flying blade swashbuckler might use the startoss chain instead for reliable damage without sneak attack, and it's possible to make knife throwing work for a vigilante, warpriest, fighter or even a magus.
Well, the idea wasn't Rogue knife thrower, it was just knife thrower, and I figured Rogue would probably be the best class to do it with. Also, like I said, I narrowed down my options because I knew that I didn't want to play a divine class and the Swashbuckler doesn't really appeal to me, so that kind of left me with Rogue and Rogue adjacent stuff.
But a knife throwing Rogue does sound super fun to me. I'm not looking for something super optimized. I was just hoping there was a way to use Scout to set up SA damage somewhat reliably. Giving up your extra \ iterative attacks is kind of brutal for your damage output though, so I went looking for a way to get those back somehow.
Easy.
Take 3 levels of Weapon Master Fighter, because that's all you need for Weapon Training.
Take Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
Go back into UnChained Rogue/Ninja.
Enjoy.
both advanced weapon training and the weapon training feat require fighter levels otherwise its just a +1 to hit and damage.
You can take the feat for an advanced weapon training option at weapon master 4.
Just take accomplished sneak attacker and move back and forth as you feel you need to for either feats, skills, or class abilities. I'd personally get my 4 to 5 levels of urogue in for debilitation, and dex to damage and put the rest in fighter, using that accomplished sneak attacker feat to keep the progression going.
Just take accomplished sneak attacker and move back and forth as you feel you need to for either feats, skills, or class abilities. I'd personally get my 4 to 5 levels of urogue in for debilitation, and dex to damage and put the rest in fighter, using that accomplished sneak attacker feat to keep the progression going.Easy.
Take 3 levels of Weapon Master Fighter, because that's all you need for Weapon Training.
Take Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
Go back into UnChained Rogue/Ninja.
Enjoy.
The problem is, as I understand it, is that you can't take Accomplished Sneak Attacker more than once.
Well, the idea wasn't Rogue knife thrower, it was just knife thrower, and I figured Rogue would probably be the best class to do it with.
General concept in Pathfinder: Whatever it is you're trying to do, Rogue is not the best class for it. Even if you want to build a dex-based character without spells who's good at stealth and skills in general, can disable magic traps, and targets an enemy's vital points with their attacks and get extra d6 on damage rolls, Rogue is not the best class for that.
Doesn't mean you mustn't play a Rogue, or that one can't have fun with a Rogue, but no one should ever think they have to play a Rogue because it's either necessary, or the best, for their character concept. And while I'm sure there are exceptions to this, they're extremely rare, and propably tied to very specific concepts.
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To cover the bases, what kind of weapon are we talking about? Does it have to be shaped like a small knife (e.g. dagger)? Would a starknife be okay? Would a chakram be okay? Would any thrown weapon?
Be wary that weapons with a mere 10ft range probably won't work well in practise unless you can grab an ability that increases the range.
Only after knowing which weapons are fine with you can we offer any actual helpful advise. And while I'm at it, you only talked about divine casting, can we take that to mean alchemy or arcane casting is allright?
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The problem is, as I understand it, is that you can't take Accomplished Sneak Attacker more than once.
Yes, you can't. However, missing a dice or two not necessarily kills your build. And actually, you would have a hard time to insert the feat a second time (or more), given how many feats dagger throwing eats up.
My impression is: You already made up your mind and you want daggers and the rogue class by all means, with full sneak attack progression. So you are down to 2 class levels that can be spent otherwise. If you pick up brawler (snakebite striker, 1d6 sneak at level 1), you can afford another non-rogue level, so you are at 4 non-rogue levels.
Well, people here made several good proposals how to spend these levels. So I propose: Make your choice, accept that rogue and throwing both mean some struggle in actual play and enjoy the moments when it works.
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You could also do rogue/Flying blade swashbuckler if throwing daggers is the goal.
With the advent of startoss style, damage shouldn't be your primary concern with thrown. Deadly aim + startoss style feats + a die or 2 of sneak or a few levels of swashbuckler precise strike will keep you competitive.
Your big concern with thrown daggers is needing: Quick draw, TWF, The style feat, precise shot, point blank shot, the startoss feats, a damage booster feat or even two (power attack, butterfly sting, and/or deadly aim) double slice, etc etc. PLUS either a blinkbat belt, and either fighter levels, or ANOTHER prereq feat plus ricochet toss
Its so feat hungry you NEED levels in something like fighter, warpriest, swashbuckler, or brawler to simply have enough feats to be up and running before like level 9.
Thrown is probably the clunkiest, most difficult to make work well fighting style.
edit: you can make a crossbow user functional and running before thrown manages to get its s+@~ together
When knife thrower is explicitly the concept, sledgehammers/dwarven sphinx hammers probably aren't close enough to fit. Even a chakram would likely be a hard sell. Just saying.