Cleric: Ranged Bad Touch?


Advice


I'd like to bad touch things at range.

My cleric is in a bind. My group decided to roll for stats, and after racial adjustments my dwarf cleric's stats were as follows:

STR: 6
DEX: 9
CON: 15
INT: 10
WIS: 19
CHA: 11

This is, of course, far from a perfect array of stats. In fact, I'd reckon the point buy value is something like 12 or 13.

We have two melee characters - a slayer and a brawler. We have an occultist who said she'll be entering melee. We have a wizard. We're starting at level 1 in Strange Aeons with little to no recollection of our past.

My dwarf worships Groetus, and I explicitly want to use the Madness domain's touch power at 1st level. However, with my stats I don't think I can safely do that from melee range.

Present plan is to find a way to do this from afar and to use the Evangelist archetype. Inspire Courage, Flagbearer, and bad touch cleric goodness with some AoE buffs / debuffs.

So, how can I do ranged touch with my bad touch? Spectral Hand is an option, but requires UMD that I don't have the skill points for. Anything else? Note that I need this for domain powers as well as spells.


With stats that are telling you not to use attack rolls I think you'll be better to focus on buffs, area spells, targeted spells and/or summoning.

If you insist - a conductive whip or other reach weapon, and the reach spell metamagic are as close as you're going to get.


avr wrote:

With stats that are telling you not to use attack rolls I think you'll be better to focus on buffs, area spells, targeted spells and/or summoning.

If you insist - a conductive whip or other reach weapon, and the reach spell metamagic are as close as you're going to get.

Yeah, that was my initial thought too on my combat role, but the party wizard has a whopping 17 INT after racial mods. I'm trying to help the Wizard with their spell DCs however possible.

My thought is to use this ability...

Quote:
Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

...as my 'bad touch' specifically so as to help the wizard do her thing. Otherwise, a few specific bad touch abilities + buffs/summons/area spells.

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A reach weapon does make sense. I don't know if I can afford exotic weapon proficiency, but there's probably something I can use. My strength is abysmal, but... I can figure something out.

Mostly, the ability I'm worried about is the Vision of Madness ability. It's so good that I feel obligated to find a way to use that somehow.


Oh, I forgot to note:

If it helps, I could probably shuffle my stats a little. But that means my STR is, at most, a +0 instead of a -2.


Shorticus wrote:
Present plan is to find a way to do this from afar and to use the Evangelist archetype. Inspire Courage, Flagbearer, and bad touch cleric goodness with some AoE buffs / debuffs.

Just gonna put it out there, you don't have the stats for FLAGBEARER.

As far as I can see your rolled stats were: 17, 13, 13, 10, 9, 6.

The way I see it clerics have a couple of potential dump stats: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma. Now you've picked an archetype that gives a little more to Charisma, so you don't want to dump that, but you've also picked a race that gives a penalty to Charisma, so that's hurting your rolls.

I'd dump Intelligence: You've also decided you want 10 Intelligence, even though it's only really govong you 1 extra skill point per level over putting the 6 there (minimum skills per level from your class is 1, so an INT of 3 will give a cleric the same skill points as an INT of 9).

I would probably redistribute stats like this: S-9, D-13, C-15, I-6, W-19, C-8. Or if you really want to avoid a negative CHA modifier go S-9, D-13, C-12, I-6, W-19, C-11.

How married are you to being a dwarf? If you went Human you could do something like: S-9, D-13, C-13, I-6, W-19, C-10. You'd have the same number of skill points (because human), and could take Weapon Finesse to help you deliver touch spells. You could even put +1 in DEX or CON at 4th level and still have enough WIS to always have a bonus spell-slot in your highest level of spells.

Have you thought about changing your age category? If you go Middle-Aged you get -1 to your physical stats (STR/DEX/CON) and +1to your mental stats (INT/WIS/CHA). If we apply that to my example Human above we get S-8, D-12, C-12, I-7, W-20, C-11 (the penalties are basically meaningless, but you end up with 20 WIS at level 1). Or we could apply it to your example Dwarf from your first post and get S-5, D-8, C-14, I-11, W-20, C-12 (Your STR penalty is worse, your DEX and CON and INT modifiers are the same, and your WIS and CHA get +1).

You don't have to fallow any of this, but they're different ways of looking at your stats, and hopefully you get something from that.


Is there a Cleric domain that grants a Familiar? Or do you want to take a couple feats to get a familiar? When you said you wanted to deliver Touch spells at reach this is immediately what I thought.

Another thing to think about is the Reach spell metamagic. If you take that feat you could cast Short range Touch spells at only a 1 level increase. At higher levels getting a Rod of this metamagic feat and retraining this one on your PC could be advantageous.

Lunge is a feat that gives you a bit of reach with your slaps. Rearranging your stats to up your Cha and then taking a few levels in Sorcerer with the Aberrant bloodline gives you some low-level Arcane spells and an extra 5' reach on your melee Touch attacks. Last thing that dip into Sorcerer gives you is Enlarge Person; while this reduces your AC a tad it also gives you a natural 10' Reach which, coupled with your Bloodline lets you stand 15' from your enemies and slap away.

Having high Cha and dipping into Sorcerer could gives you the pre-reqs for a Tumor Familiar under the Aberrant Tumor feat. You need 3 levels to get your extra 5' reach on slaps, and 3 levels of Sorcerer with this feat on your character gives you a Familiar that can deliver Touch spells; a win/win! With high Cha you can also take Evolved Familiar to enhance the thing later, if you so choose, and it gets Fast Healing 5 when it's attached back to you again so you can keep it alive.

I don't know if these are OPTIMAL choices mind you, but these are some of the ways you get to what you're looking for. Do with them what you will.


Quote:
I'd dump Intelligence: You've also decided you want 10 Intelligence, even though it's only really govong you 1 extra skill point per level over putting the 6 there (minimum skills per level from your class is 1, so an INT of 3 will give a cleric the same skill points as an INT of 9).

As painful as it is to me, dumping INT is... honestly very sensible. I'll talk to my GM about that. It would help STR a lot and may be a good option. The downside is RPing a 6 INT character. It's something to think about.

Quote:
How married are you to being a dwarf?

Unfortunately, very. I made a token for the online game he's in, and I'm really attached to him being a dwarf. Plus, him being a dwarf provides a lot of options:

+2 saves vs. spells, SLAs, and poisons
+2 dodge AC vs. aberrations (we're in Strange Aeons)
I can swap Hatred for Fey Thoughts, getting UMD as a class skill (which frankly I might need)
+2 CON and WIS helps my saves, HP, spellcasting, and more

If it means I can't take Flagbearer, that's... well, that's fine, honestly. It was meant more as a nice bonus than as a core aspect of the build. I can still get my CHA bonus to a +1 if I swap the stat in CON over to CHA, and I can still have a 13 CON that becomes a 14 later.

But yes - while I'm happy to swap my stats around, I am 100% staying Dwarf. Dwarf is really, really good, and the roleplay of being a pale, old, wild-eyed dwarf is... Yeah, really nice.

Quote:
Is there a Cleric domain that grants a Familiar? Or do you want to take a couple feats to get a familiar? When you said you wanted to deliver Touch spells at reach this is immediately what I thought.

I thought about this, but Voice of Madness is a domain power, not a spell. Familiar can't do it.

Still, I could nab a familiar via VMC if there's another way that would help. Or VMC sorcerer if that would give me something I needed?

Quote:
Have you thought about changing your age category?

I have. My group does age categories as roleplay, not as stat changers. I wish it was an option to get Middle Aged bonuses so I could have, say, 20 WIS and 14 CHA at start, but I doubt that would fly.

I'll ask anyway, just in case.


Shorticus wrote:
Quote:
I'd dump Intelligence: You've also decided you want 10 Intelligence, even though it's only really govong you 1 extra skill point per level over putting the 6 there (minimum skills per level from your class is 1, so an INT of 3 will give a cleric the same skill points as an INT of 9).

As painful as it is to me, dumping INT is... honestly very sensible. I'll talk to my GM about that. It would help STR a lot and may be a good option. The downside is RPing a 6 INT character. It's something to think about.

Quote:
How married are you to being a dwarf?

Unfortunately, very. I made a token for the online game he's in, and I'm really attached to him being a dwarf. Plus, him being a dwarf provides a lot of options:

+2 saves vs. spells, SLAs, and poisons
+2 dodge AC vs. aberrations (we're in Strange Aeons)
I can swap Hatred for Fey Thoughts, getting UMD as a class skill (which frankly I might need)
+2 CON and WIS helps my saves, HP, spellcasting, and more

If it means I can't take Flagbearer, that's... well, that's fine, honestly. It was meant more as a nice bonus than as a core aspect of the build. I can still get my CHA bonus to a +1 if I swap the stat in CON over to CHA, and I can still have a 13 CON that becomes a 14 later.

But yes - while I'm happy to swap my stats around, I am 100% staying Dwarf. Dwarf is really, really good, and the roleplay of being a pale, old, wild-eyed dwarf is... Yeah, really nice.

Honestly dwarf is a really good choice, I just thought I'd throw that out there.

So the main thing is that you have 2 dump stats - STR and INT - You've swapped DEX for INT. It doesn't matter too much which is the 6 and which is the 9, but since INT doesn't really give much below 10 I'd put the 6 there.

I'd also put my favoured class bonus into skill points. The Dwarf FCB for clerics look good, but honestly you'll end up with ~28 WIS, so getting more than 12 uses per day of a domain power is probably overkill. The Hitpoints option might be a good idea for survival. I usually take the HP at level 1 (when 1 extra HP is the most valuable), then switch to a good FCB or skill points when I feel less squishy.

It's worth noting that getting UMD as a class skill is only really useful if you invest in it. With 6 INT you'l only have one skill point per level (which is why I suggested taking the skill point as your FCB).

For Roleplaying a 6 INT character, remember that it doesn't really mean you're stupid, just uneducated. You still have 19 WIS, so you're good at some things. I'd probably just have my character try things that you know they're not good at - Diplomacy/checking for traps/etc. Play as someone who's slow to learn lessons. If you really don't want to go that way you could take 9 INT and 6 STR. The result will be almost the same, you'll just have less carry capacity.

For your stats you'll get a lot of varying opinions, but my thoughts are that if you're focusing on being a caster (as a 9th level caster) you want 18 in your casting stat at level 1, and you'll put all your level-ups in that stat. This means that every time you level up to a new spell-level you'll have a high enough modifier in your casting stat to get a bonus spell per day, which is a huge bonus. Since you're starting with 19 WIS this means you can put one point into another stat without losing that benefit. So I guess you'll want to choose DEX/CON/CHA for your stat bump at level 4 (or I guess INT if you start with 9 and really feel the lack of skill points).

For delivering touch spells I'd take Weapon Finesse and either LUNGE or LUNGING SPELL TOUCH. They do more or less the same thing but with different prerequisites. As far as I can tell you could technically take both and increase your reach with spells by 10 feet, but I'm not sure it works that way, and I'm not sure you'd want to spend 2 feats on it even if it does. Other than that some good options have already been mentioned.


I just thought, if you are struggling with the idea of a lack of skill points you could take the feat BREADTH OF EXPERIENCE. If you're doing this I'd probably put the 9 in INT and the 6 in STR so that the bonus isn't totally wasted, but it means you can roll on everything even if your bonus isn't high. Not necessarily the most powerful 1st level feat, but it's an option.


If you don't want to spend a feat then a longspear is a simple reach weapon. You'll need some strength if you do that of course. Advantages of the whip are that it has 15' reach and works with weapon finesse if you get that too.


I mean, even with 6 STR a Longspear has the potential to trip a charging enemy. I don't think this character is going to be a good combatant, so holding a Longspear is probably a good idea even in the back row.

Lunge/Lunging Spell Touch are more about delivering touch spells and domain powers while staying slightly out if reach.


Evangelist would be good, but Herald Caller gets you the extra skill points you want and allows you to be an effective ranged/melee person because of summoning. Voice of Madness may not work with a familiar, but other bad touch spells would work and so may be worth considering.


I think, after some thought, Lunge or Lunging Spell Touch + a 9 starting Strength score is a good way to go. It'll be 1 to hit lower than my DEX provides, but I don't feel a need to burn Weapon Finesse on it so long as I do that. 6 INT I can deal with, and just RP someone whose words are convincing enough to sway minds. Low INT can be the result of whatever he's gotten himself into. After all, he is a touched fellow, worshiping Groetus and all.

Breadth of Experience... I'm playing a knowledge junkie in another campaign (Archivist bard in Mummy's Mask), and a couple other players want to do all the knowledges, so I think I'll let them shine in that area.


Edit: At the risk of making an on-topic post...
You could be a Cleric of Besmara and give up a domain to get a familiar. This is under "Other Rules" near the bottom.

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If you're not married to the idea of a Bad Touch, you could play a Varisian Pilgrim, and deliver your domains at range. This helps if you're thinking about taking the Magic(Arcane) domain by being able to center the effect on the Wizard and extend the range to 30'. This would, however, reduce your melee capabilities to shouting, "Not in the face!"

Applicable (Golarian) deities are:

Barbatos (Arcane, Travel/Exploration/Trade) -- You may want to have an Intelligence of 6 to explain away why you'd follow the Archdevil of Animals, Corruption, and Gateways. Decent domains, though. If your DM is a fan of rough terrain, Travel is nice. Otherwise, the others are solid boosts to your party.

Isis, Alseta (Community, Arcane) -- If you have a Barbarian in your party, you'll be the team player of the century, boosting the Wizard's CL or save and removing the Barbie's fatigue. Go you.

Abraxas, Shiggarreb, Tsathoggua (Chaos, Arcane) -- Like Barbatos, but worse. You probably won't want to get into range to deliver Touch of Chaos.

Alternately, you could pick Shelyn (Love, Luck) for good general buffs. With the love domain, they'll take you seriously when you shout, "Not in the face!"

Also, Calistria (Luck, Trickery) is good for throwing a 50% miss chance on someone with your move action while also buffing them with your standard.

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Feats I like to complement this (assuming you're a human) are War Blessing and Channeled Blessing. This should give you two minor Warpriest blessings and let you deliver them at range. Check with your DM to make sure these work together before committing.


So it is worth noting that you can't get Lunging Spell Touch till level 7 (and you'd have to spend 6 skill points on Spellcraft). You can't get Lunge till level 9 (but it doesn't cost you any skill ranks).

If you DID go Weapon Finesse you could put another point in DEX without really hurting your long term scores, which would bring you to a +2 modifier for delivering your touch spells as opposed to -1 from STR (so +3 from one feat).

If you decide not to go that route you could put the +1 into CHA for more channels and performance, or into CON for more HP and Fort saves. Either of those seems a pretty good option too although it will make yiu noticeably less good as a bad-touch cleric.

Breadth of Experience was probably a bit silly if you're dumping INT, it was more if you were struggling with that idea.


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Also, Calistria (Luck, Trickery) is good for throwing a 50% miss chance on someone with your move action while also buffing them with your standard.

Oh man, that's amazing! Stealing that for an NPC in my campaign...

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