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A popular topic these days! I've been fiddling with mine for a while, which can be found here. It's not complete or polished, and some things are just me jotting down ideas. Here are two links to other recent posts as well: Captain Morgan's and Deadmanwalking's.
There's a lot going on with the Alchemist class that makes it pretty janky. My goal was to remove some jankiness but also try to make the class feel less like an NPC with a pile of alchemical items. I tried to fit the class somewhere between a caster and a martial in terms of proficiency progression, but math isn't a thing I do so I tried to get it to where it felt better to me. I removed as many math fixers as I felt was appropriate and tried to make them baseline, and I added in a few more class feats to play with because what the Alchemist has right now is pretty uninspiring.
For the Bomber I tried to keep it simple and play to the specialization's goals: bombs and throwing them. I wanted more interesting additives and some more combat options, though I did the least work on the Bomber.
For the Chirurgeon I tried to find a way to make their non-magical healing and support smoother. I'm toying with the idea of more support for the Chirurgeon doing debuff effects like nerve toxins or sleep bombs or laughing gas.
For the Mutagenist, I wanted them to feel like they can hyper-concentrate a mutagen and get great effects from it while still being a standard martial class when outside of a mutagen. This one was hard because I didn't want it to overshadow the Barbarian, but I also wanted it to be able to feel like they're supercharged when they drink their crazy mutagens. I aimed more for the melee feel on this one, and tried to follow the Hulk smash theme with some benefits for more general mutagen use. I went with "concentrating" mutagens in an effort to try and avoid a Mutagenist potentially having mountains of reagents lying around because as mutagens scale they last significantly longer and giving more bang for their reagent cost than bombs.
I also felt like the Alchemist on the whole could make use of focus points, so I created the "concoction" focus casting. I felt like having some Alchemist-only alchemical items fit, and could be managed pretty easily with concoctions.
I plan to give these a whirl here in a week or two and see how they compare to other classes, how fun the changes are for the Alchemist and the table, and whether it feels more flavorful and interesting to play.
Thanks for any constructive feedback in advance!
Some very interesting ideas and feats!
Some a little too strong, specially Cluster Bomb and Rip and Tear. I think they can stay the same, but must be of higher level, for the following reasons: Bombs are better than simple attacks and with your changes they also add INT to damage, they're also ranged weapons and thus need to have a drawback and it also gives you stuff that are core of other classes. Rip and Tear also have similar issues and I think it would be an amazing feat if it was just the action economy advantage without the extra bleed and stuff like that.
I would move both at least one or two tiers higher. Cluster Bomb could be 6th level and treat the second bomb as agile. I think Rip and Tear could easily be a 12th level feature the wait it is.
Otherwise, I think you got some very flavorful, and strong, ideas in here, it would certainly immensely increase my interest in playing the class if it was similar to this in the Core Rulebook.
Also, Flat Fortitude checks isn't a thing. So it's either a flat check (probably DC 15 as usual) or a Fortitude check with the DC based on the level of the item.
One last thing, I think the bombs+mutagen could gain another feat later on to improve the size of the breath weapon, that would be neat.
Thank you!
As for the flat checks thing, that's fixed. I thought I had removed those but that was on a different document.
I'm still looking at the level for different feats and nothing is really set in stone yet so I appreciate that feedback. I waffled a lot with Feral Mutagen, for instance, because it has a pretty big effect at lower levels but 8th felt just a bit too high.
Cluster Bomb being at 6th could work. My thinking for 4th was that it could act as a sort of Power Attack option for Bombers and Chirurgeons around the time that things might start getting resistances. Because it requires the Grenadier feature (i.e. draw and throw in the same action, 30 ft increment, which Bombers and Chirurgeons get by default) it didn't have any sort of action economy advantage.
Rip and Tear could be later. I liked the idea of giving someone invested in the bestial mutagen side of things an action or two that felt like it played up the feral aspects of everything.
Bombs + Mutagen is probably something I'll keep exploring. It seems like it'd be fun to expand the breath weapon or to fiddle with delivery a bit. On the other hand, I like that it kind of just does its thing and isn't necessarily part of a big line, and it naturally scales with the bombs.
I spent a lot of time on Mutagenist, so I'll probably look a bit more closely at Chirurgeon and Bomber for my next round of ideas. I like the thought of the Chirurgeon having some more debuff concoctions so they aren't strictly relegated to handing out elixirs of life. I also want to nail down the feel of additives, because I think that's a fun thing for the class once you get past the level requirement stuff that feels more punishing than balancing.
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Added in a "set of specialized alchemist's tools" in the Alchemy ability. Only the Alchemist can use them and they can't be sold, plus the "personalized" nature of the tools (you know just where you left that beaker, you created an extra sleek titrator, etc.) reduces it down to 1L bulk.
Waffled a bit with giving Chirurgeon Battle Medicine as a starting feat, but for now left it with the Aerosol Elixir and letting them use their starting alchemist's tools for Medicine. Also taking a look at whether +Int mod to the healing done when using treat wounds would work. My thinking is that this sets them apart from a Rogue just picking up a healer's kit and going to town. Though the difference in skill increases has me leaning towards maybe giving a bonus to the Crafting roll rather than a bonus to the healing. Maybe it needs neither; Medicine is pretty darn good.
Trying now to come up with some more interesting class feats that let the Alchemist do things that other people can't just by crafting alchemical items. I'm enjoying fiddling with the space that a less restrictive Additive trait and focus points provide. Strong things can be prevented from stacking too much with Additive, and be restricted even more as focus point Concoctions. This way the Alchemist can grow beyond just throwing more acid flasks or whatever and actually have more of their own special abilities.
I like Laughing Gas as a Chirurgeon Concoction; slapping people with hideous laughter for a shorter duration seems fun and on-brand. The Propulsive Launcher for bombers also seems like a way to let them spend their focus points to have a way to hit things far away/flying. I like the idea of the Time Bomb acting sort of like the 1e Time Oracle ability to phase out of reality a bit, but I'll have to go back to that for some wording.
Thinking right now about what sorts of spells can be reflavored as alchemical item class feats, so going to look back at what the 1e Alchemist had for extracts. I like the idea of a mutagen or additive to the Cognitive Mutagen that lets you do clairaudience or clairvoyance but knocks you out for the duration. Will experiment with additives to other elixirs.
About the Alchemist's tools: these are already 1 bulk since the latest errata.
I've only skimmed the rest of the document but it looks really cool. I love the idea of Alchemist focus spells. I also like the ability for the bomber to exclude squares from splash damage equal to their int modifier, as my current alchemist player was just scolded at by their party for almost killing two allies.
Yep! I think I made the specialized tools weigh only one light bulk in the document so that, for the Alchemist, the bulk of their main toolkit is practically negligible.
I'm pretty sure reducing the number of squares affected by splash is a 1e ability, and I was puzzled as to why that wasn't a thing in this edition!
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Got to play a little more alchemist this weekend. Only level 1, and I made a Bomber to see how things felt there.
The party was a Gnome Order of the Leaf Druid, Half-elf Enchantment Wizard, Dwarf Mountain Stance Monk, and then Versatile Human Bomber. I took Alchemical Familiar (Extra Reagents and Lab Assistant) and Alchemical Savant (for flavor, and to see if it'd come up at all).
(1) Having the Inexhaustible Catalyst felt great. Knowing I had two reagents ready to go to adapt to things was really nice, and felt like I was able to take advantage of having a variety of formulas in my book for different situations as they came up. I felt like this encouraged me to not fill up my formula book with just different flavors of bomb, and instead have things that I could pass around if needed. The interaction with Elixir of Life is something I felt like I wanted to be wary of, but then again out of combat healing is so good anyways that it might not be an issue at all.
(2) Bombs felt fine. The +Int to damage did not seem unreasonable for what I feel is a martial class, and throwing multiple bombs in a turn at 30ft range didn't seem overly strong. I missed a bit and decided to start making Quicksilver Mutagens with my Inxhaustible Catalyst reagents. I rolled max damage on one Alchemist's Fire crit, which was impressive, but overall not more than what the Monk was able to throw out four times a turn for free with Flurry. For something that uses resources, the bombs seemed like they were in a good spot.
(3) Picking whether to go for Dex or Int as the key ability score was an interesting choice. I ultimately went for Dex 18/Int 16 to get more accuracy and less damage and reagents. It felt like a meaningful choice at level 1, which I liked.
(4) Reagents still felt limited. In one PL+2 encounter I threw four prepared bombs and used an Inexhaustible Catalyst reagent. Looking back at my sheet, I was pretty spent and was close to relying on my concoction reagents. The Druid used grease to great effect, and the Wizard cast magic missile once, and then again with Drain Bonded Item. In terms of how many resources I used, that seemed somewhat appropriate for the challenge, except for the fact that the casters could fall back on Cantrips and I couldn't.
(1) Quick Alchemy has the effects of Enduring Alchemy now by default, and Enduring Alchemy now lets items made with Quick Alchemy last for 1 minute. Timing was awkward, and it didn't make sense that I could make something at the end of my turn and then not be able to use it at the start of my next turn.
That timing felt wrong, felt like I couldn't take advantage of my reagents and a spare action at the end of my turn, and thinking about my character choices I wasn't sure I'd want to spend a level 4 feat just to adjust that tiny window. This seems like it'll be smoother and make Enduring Alchemy more of a choice.
(2) Daily reagents from (level + Int) to (2 + level + Int). Thinking about my build, on one hand I liked that having a higher Int gave me more toys for the day. On the other hand, I don't think Alchemists were given enough baseline reagents, and at level 1 I had really no backup plan besides my two concoction reagents if I ran out of bombs. I wasn't doing so much damage that I felt like the class needed to be limited to hold them back in that regard. For my utility formulas, having my two floating reagents was great, but I also hardly had room to make "side options" like poisons or mutagens without sacrificing a lot in terms of my bombing ability.
2 + level + Int feels like a P1e line, and it's clunky, but I didn't want to remove Int from the equation. I think this way Alchemists can sacrifice a bit of Int to focus on more interesting builds (especially Mutagenists) without running out of resources, and it lets Bombers and Chirurgeons make a safe number of bombs without feeling like they can't make anything else with their daily preparations. I'll keep an eye on this; I might even bump it to 4+
(3) Put into the Alchemy section that any formulas already in the Alchemist's formula book when they level up are automatically upgraded to the Alchemist's Alchemy level. Looking at my formula book in play, and then looking at what I would need to do to upgrade everything as my character leveled, it just seemed so, so, sooo tedious. In some campaigns you might have a decent amount of downtime to research higher levels of everything, but in many the second you "ding" isn't usually a time when you can go back home.
Everyone else advances automatically, and it made no sense to force the Alchemist to go back through their formula book one by one to be up to date. Someone with the Alchemical Crafting feat? Yes. Alchemists? No. At the same time, if you go pick up a new formula at a level lower than your Alchemy level you still either need to research the better formula or wait until you level up. That seems fine to me.
Overall, it seemed like a much smoother experience, and I felt like I had a solid role as a ranged damage dealer and the guy to turn to for small buffs throughout the day. I still felt like I had juuuust too few reagents to be a consistent bomber, but I was fine with having that limitation if it meant I also had some versatility.
The casters didn't feel like I was stepping on their toes, and they had effects and class abilities they could focus on that I couldn't replicate. The Monk was clobbering things and had much more consistent DPR than me, but the player also thought it was cool that I had a lot of small tricks up my sleeve.
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Considering some adjustments after the APG. Honestly was expecting a bit more.
The Investigator's forensics path seems like a good thing to compare a chirurgeon to, so I'll be looking there to find a nice parallel so that each class has a decent niche. Investigator seems to have alchemical and skill-based designs that Alchemist could have really benefited from. I still like aerosol elixir for chirurgeon, despite the existence of healing bomb, which honestly seems (again) way too conservative. I really don't think the default additive rules have a place in P2e.
Toxicologist is cool, although doesn't resolve some of what I think are the base issues with the class. Going to think of adding a bit there. I'll have to see what it can do with the poisoner archetype.
The new familiar options are great though. It's at a point where I'm tempted to bring a homunculus on every test build I do.
Didn't post here when I made the change, but I removed the ability for Mutagenists to make their upgraded mutagens with Quick Alchemy. Combined with Inexhaustible Catalyst it seemed to lock a Mutagenist into always having an upgraded mutagen and always using their extra infused reagents to make mutagens, which after some reflection seems like a thing they should be able to save for the bigger fights. With medium armor and improved proficiencies on top of the extra mutagenist-specific feats, it seems to work out.
Plus, in terms of narrative it's been a bit more interesting for the to consider "running out" of the souped-up resources and have to fall back on regular mutagens, which adds some texture to the moment-to-moment decisions.
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Had made some changes due to late-2020 errata but didn't post here. Lots of new alchemist discussion so figured I'd update. Still kind of adjusting and tinkering with the higher level stuff, trying to find some decent level 17 bonuses for the research fields.
Still primarily addressing pain points but overall after some playing it seems balanced. Mutagenists are what I've seen the most interest in and the one most players pick up, and it's been interesting to see how they build around the bonuses for concentrating mutagens. Juggernaut and Drakeheart are both very popular, almost as much as Bestial. I've seen one build focused on tanking up with temp hp and smacking stuff in melee as a pseudo-Barbarian. Another went straight feral and spends their time leaping around with Leaper's Elixirs, since their mutagens last so long. At higher levels being able to combine a bunch of 10 minute/1 hour mutagens into more powerful versions has gone over well.
Bombers mostly enjoy Inexhaustible Catalyst, which adds some much-needed "always on" resources. I might remove the heightened versions because resources are seeming alright at higher levels. Perpetual Infusions coming online at 5th is a huge boost, too, and at least one Bomber started crafting drastically more utility items once they could have their "cantrip bombs."
No Chirurgeons or Toxicologists yet. Curious how Aerosol Elixir will work in practice, and if Chirurgeons will lean more towards buffs or bombs with some buffs.
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I made a couple more changes, I was inspired this week, and have little after-action report.
For the changes, first is that under the Alchemy ability all alchemical items made by the Alchemist use the Alchemist's class DC, period, across the board. No having to check which items were made by which ability at what time yadda yadda. Just class DC.
I also changed the mutagenist concentration Research Field feature to only work on signature items. I waffled a bit, but the numbers were wonky and I felt like this was the smoothest solution to errata that I wasn't quite sure what to do with. Now a mutagenist basically gets to pick whether they want batches of 3 of their signature mutagens or if they want to make one stronger mutagen. The original idea here is that as they level they'll get to add more bonuses, until eventually these mutagens are supercharged. Mutagenists don't benefit a ton from making a lot of mutagens at higher levels because they last so long; what do you do with three hours' worth of mutagens when you probably have fewer than four minutes of combat a day? This way they can consolidate their spare items into more powerful versions without actually getting a raw item advantage over other research fields.
Added Subtle Delivery to Toxicologist. Why not. I have to do a bit more fiddling with Toxicologist because with scaling DCs poisons are actually quite potent bonus damage. I don't think they need much outside of the usual de-jankifying but I also haven't been able to test them at higher levels at all.
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I had the opportunity to play a level 1 human mutagenist last night in The Blooming Catastrophe on Roll20. Really fun, and really smooth. Made a separate token for bestial mutagen form.
Went with Toughness and Weapon Proficiency as human bonus feats, with a Greatpick backup weapon for juicy crits. With 18 Str and medium armor (thank errata) I felt pretty confident as the only frontliner with a bow ranger and a bard. 16 Int meant I had 4 starting reagents, plus the 2 from Inexhaustible Catalyst. Made an enraging bestial mutagen and an ablative juggernaut mutagen (both signature items), a couple elixirs of life, and a couple leaper's elixirs.
Could have whipped up a cognitive elixir to help with a recall knowledge check, but I forgot. Some RP encounters went about as you'd expect. Goblin Bard wanted to color spray ("magic bear mace") some jerkhole children but we talked him down.
First fight went well, but I do think we got pretty lucky. Bard went first and got a critical on Lingering Composition with Inspire Courage, and I counted five(!) attacks that hit only because of the buff. I popped my bestial mutagen in the first fight because I was excited, even though I probably should have saved it for a bigger battle later in the day. The enraging modifier felt good, and the damage was big. I was comparing the rolls with a sort of stock Barbarian character I had made to see what would happen if I were playing a Barbarian, and the damage was comparable. Jaw/claw on bestial are lower damage dice, so the Barbarian smacking things with a greataxe would have hit harder, but the +1 from the mutagen (and the Bard) helped land a couple hits.
Will be getting to harder fights later, I'm sure, so we'll see how it all goes with more of a drag-out fight. Interested in seeing how the ablative juggernaut elixir with 8 temp hp holds up against a big monster--sort of like a pre-healing potion. Playing it, I do like the dynamic of concentrating the mutagens at the beginning of the day. I could have had four big mutagens but been confined to Inexhaustible Catalyst reagents for the remainder, or three and a couple elixirs of life. At any rate, knowing that I can hulk out every fight is fun.
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Another after-action and some changes!
First, cleaned up the document to just have all of the changes to Alchemist as a whole. Everything's there and in a better format, though Google docs is kind of pathetic in that regard. Been slowly working on making template abilities so everything looks nice, but it's sort of a laborious process.
Added the Specialized trait so I can make some Alchemist specific items, with Specialized items being available for all Alchemists through the Alchemy class feature (which MCD don't get). For everyone else the items are treated as Uncommon. Now I can make actual alchemical items that only Alchemists can make, and I whipped up a few, including one that gives the imbiber telekinetic projectile and a bonus to attacks and DCs with the mental trait (with a 1/day synaptic pulse at higher levels to end the mutagen), and a white phosphorus "sunflame canister" that does periodic damage and dazzles in a small AoE.
Also made an adjusted version of the Druid's wild shape, called Brundleform Mutagen. Level 2 feat for a concoction/focus spell that lets the Alchemist do pest form + aberration trait, though not as well as a Druid. Then at level 6 I put in a feat for Insectoid Shape, another concoction/focus spell that lets the Alchemist do insect form with a different benefit than what the Druid gets; the Alchemist gets to use their hands! Imagining ant heads and extra limbs while still being able to throw bombs or drink potions. Seemed fun. Am going to fiddle with some more battle form abilities because there are a lot of wacky thematic things that can be done with the mad alchemist trope.
Having a lot of fun thinking up new alchemical items that are unique and help fill out the Alchemist's arsenal without being overbearing when spammed. And concoction/focus points adds a whole new layer, which lets things get super weird without having to balance items for what happens if they get passed to other characters.
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Fought a nasty scarecrow thing that went for my character pretty aggressively, but the juggernaut mutagen barely kept him alive because of the 3 extra temp hp, along with the monster critically failing against a color spray. The bard got hit by giant centipedes that ambushed us but he managed to make three(!) saves against giant centipede poison by the skin of his teeth with the +1 bonus granted by the elixir of life. I got a couple really juicy greatpick hits too, and the ranger kept up a steady flow of damage as well. Used revivifying mutagen afterwards to end the juggernaut and get some hp back, and the new-to-2e ranger player though it was cool that I could re-use the mutagen later with mutagenic flashback (thanks errata!)
Used inexhaustible catalyst to heal the party up with elixirs of life, after using one reagent to pass over a cognitive mutagen to the bard for a quick occultism check. Although 2d6 healing per 10 minute refocus was pretty good, I didn't necessarily see that as better than goodberry (1d6+4/berry) or lay on hands. Always having something to pass out also felt really good, and at any rate once the permanent items ran out I was stuck having to quick alchemy > drink immediately. Definitely makes Enduring Alchemy at 1 minute tempting.
The rest of the encounters were resolved with very high skill checks on the parts of the ranger and bard, so that was that.