Can you ignore counteract rules on personal spells?


Rules Discussion


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A target can’t be under the effect of more than one polymorph effect at a time. If it comes under the effect of a second polymorph effect, the second polymorph effect attempts to counteract the first. If it succeeds, it takes effect, and if it fails, the spell has no effect on that target.

If my sorcerer turned dragon is losing a fight, and I want to turn into a tiny pest form to run away through a small opening (such as a small tunnel where my foe won't fit), can I do that without needing to contend with the counteract rule?

Horizon Hunters

Rather than think of it as a general rule on personal polymorph trait spells, my instinct is to look at the specific details for the spells in question.

Before we go any further I'd point you to a part lower in the Polymorph description:
"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

Dragon form says you have hands and that you can take manipulate actions but not that you can cast a spell. That being said I could see a GM allowing this specifically for Dragon Form.

I think because you cannot control the duration of the spell Dragon Form (it just continues for a minute and does not have the concentrate trait) that yes directly casting pest form would be two separate spell effects counteracting one another.

You could still avoid this scenario all together by using an action to dismiss the Dragon Form spell since the spell's description specifically says you can do so.

Due to the restrictions normally on Polymorph, in most other scenarios another casting of a Polymorph spell on yourself by yourself won't be possible.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's a good point. Perhaps we should assume a potion is used, or an ally is casting the second polymorph spell.

At its core, my question is "Can you simply choose one or the other effect, essentially ignoring counteract rolling, when it's a known beneficial effect?"

(Such as when you or a known ally is casting the spell.)


Next time just use an easier example, like a cleric wanting to switch from Bless to Bane without dismissing bless first. Apart from that I would be equally interessted in the outcome of your question about mandatory or voluntary counteracting if both effects come from the same source.

Horizon Hunters

Ubertron_X wrote:
Next time just use an easier example, like a cleric wanting to switch from Bless to Bane without dismissing bless first. Apart from that I would be equally interessted in the outcome of your question about mandatory or voluntary counteracting if both effects come from the same source.

Going with my gut on the core of Ravingdork question my instinct is that if it is a magical effect that just continues to happen until dismissed or until the duration runs out and it doesn't require you to maintain any kind of concentration or sustaining actions then it would still be competing magical effects that would try and counteract one another. Interested in what others opinions on this are.

For clarity Uberton_X could you put some context to the scenario? Like you had been emanating bless and you wanted to immediately start emanating bane? They both have different targets. It says one can counteract the other but not that they have to. I am not sure I am seeing a reason why both can't be going at once?


Goldryno wrote:
For clarity Uberton_X could you put some context to the scenario? Like you had been emanating bless and you wanted to immediately start emanating bane? They both have different targets. It says one can counteract the other but not that they have to. I am not sure I am seeing a reason why both can't be going at once?

Yes you are right, my example was also inadequate because of the "can" wording.

However comming back to Ravingdorks question: Do I think that one can replace his own Spell Immunity (Spell Immunity) with a new Spell Immunity before the original Spell Immunity's time is up? No, I do think the counteract check is mandatory even if there would be a beneficial effect, in this case prolonging duration and/or chosing a different spell.


Automatically dispelling your own spells was a 3.X/PF1 reality which has carried over in our minds, yet I don't see it in PF2 mechanics.

Take it from Harry Dresden; sometimes your own magic is your own worst obstacle.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:
Automatically dispelling your own spells was a 3.X/PF1 reality which has carried over in our minds, yet I don't see it in PF2 mechanics.

It still exists, but only on a spell by spell basis, and is usually specifically stated directly in the spell text.


Ravingdork wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Automatically dispelling your own spells was a 3.X/PF1 reality which has carried over in our minds, yet I don't see it in PF2 mechanics.
It still exists, but only on a spell by spell basis, and is usually specifically stated directly in the spell text.

Dismissing, yes.

Do you have examples of automatically dispelling?


Goldryno wrote:

Rather than think of it as a general rule on personal polymorph trait spells, my instinct is to look at the specific details for the spells in question.

Before we go any further I'd point you to a part lower in the Polymorph description:
"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

Dragon form says you have hands and that you can take manipulate actions but not that you can cast a spell. That being said I could see a GM allowing this specifically for Dragon Form.

I think because you cannot control the duration of the spell Dragon Form (it just continues for a minute and does not have the concentrate trait) that yes directly casting pest form would be two separate spell effects counteracting one another.

You could still avoid this scenario all together by using an action to dismiss the Dragon Form spell since the spell's description specifically says you can do so.

Due to the restrictions normally on Polymorph, in most other scenarios another casting of a Polymorph spell on yourself by yourself won't be possible.

Just to point this out. Dragon Form has a Verbal Component. The Verbal Component adds the Concentrate Trait to a Spell. I'm not aware of any rule that lets you end Concentrate Spells early though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Automatically dispelling your own spells was a 3.X/PF1 reality which has carried over in our minds, yet I don't see it in PF2 mechanics.
It still exists, but only on a spell by spell basis, and is usually specifically stated directly in the spell text.

Dismissing, yes.

Do you have examples of automatically dispelling?

No. I thought you were talking about dismissing.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Goldryno wrote:

Rather than think of it as a general rule on personal polymorph trait spells, my instinct is to look at the specific details for the spells in question.

Before we go any further I'd point you to a part lower in the Polymorph description:
"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

Dragon form says you have hands and that you can take manipulate actions but not that you can cast a spell. That being said I could see a GM allowing this specifically for Dragon Form.

I think because you cannot control the duration of the spell Dragon Form (it just continues for a minute and does not have the concentrate trait) that yes directly casting pest form would be two separate spell effects counteracting one another.

You could still avoid this scenario all together by using an action to dismiss the Dragon Form spell since the spell's description specifically says you can do so.

Due to the restrictions normally on Polymorph, in most other scenarios another casting of a Polymorph spell on yourself by yourself won't be possible.

Except dragon form has a line of texts that says you can dismiss this spell. Unless Nethys has it wrong.


Isn't this similar to what Alchemists (especially Mutagenists) have to contend with when consuming mutagens?

Prior to being able to make use of multiple mutagen effects, all of which have the Polymorph trait, would imbibing a second mutagen require you to successfully counteract your previously imbibed mutagen in order for the new mutagen to take effect?


Quintessentially Me wrote:

Isn't this similar to what Alchemists (especially Mutagenists) have to contend with when consuming mutagens?

Prior to being able to make use of multiple mutagen effects, all of which have the Polymorph trait, would imbibing a second mutagen require you to successfully counteract your previously imbibed mutagen in order for the new mutagen to take effect?

Revivifying Mutagen removes the Mutagen and heals them. Most Mutagenists would do that before imbibing a new one.


Aratorin wrote:
Quintessentially Me wrote:

Isn't this similar to what Alchemists (especially Mutagenists) have to contend with when consuming mutagens?

Prior to being able to make use of multiple mutagen effects, all of which have the Polymorph trait, would imbibing a second mutagen require you to successfully counteract your previously imbibed mutagen in order for the new mutagen to take effect?

Revivifying Mutagen removes the Mutagen and heals them. Most Mutagenists would do that before imbibing a new one.

And at level 1, when you can't get Reviviying Mutagen... or at later levels if for some reason you chose not to get it... what is the resolution? What is the intended resolution?

Horizon Hunters

Kennethray wrote:
Goldryno wrote:

Rather than think of it as a general rule on personal polymorph trait spells, my instinct is to look at the specific details for the spells in question.

Before we go any further I'd point you to a part lower in the Polymorph description:
"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

Dragon form says you have hands and that you can take manipulate actions but not that you can cast a spell. That being said I could see a GM allowing this specifically for Dragon Form.

I think because you cannot control the duration of the spell Dragon Form (it just continues for a minute and does not have the concentrate trait) that yes directly casting pest form would be two separate spell effects counteracting one another.

You could still avoid this scenario all together by using an action to dismiss the Dragon Form spell since the spell's description specifically says you can do so.

Due to the restrictions normally on Polymorph, in most other scenarios another casting of a Polymorph spell on yourself by yourself won't be possible.

Except dragon form has a line of texts that says you can dismiss this spell. Unless Nethys has it wrong.

I specifically addressed that and recommended dismissing the spell in my original text that you quoted.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aratorin wrote:
Quintessentially Me wrote:

Isn't this similar to what Alchemists (especially Mutagenists) have to contend with when consuming mutagens?

Prior to being able to make use of multiple mutagen effects, all of which have the Polymorph trait, would imbibing a second mutagen require you to successfully counteract your previously imbibed mutagen in order for the new mutagen to take effect?

Revivifying Mutagen removes the Mutagen and heals them. Most Mutagenists would do that before imbibing a new one.

Not only does that not answer the question, as a feat, not every alchemist will have it.

Horizon Hunters

"Mutagens
Source Core Rulebook pg. 546
These elixirs, indicated by the mutagen trait, temporarily transmogrify the subject’s body and alter its mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens, and some say they are the only ones reckless enough to use them.

A mutagen always conveys one or more beneficial effects (listed in the Benefit entry) paired with one or more detrimental effects (shown in the Drawback entry). Mutagens are polymorph effects, and a subsequent polymorph effect attempts to counteract an existing effect; the counteract check for a mutagen uses the item’s level and a modifier equal to the that level’s DC – 10, as found on Table 10–5: DCs by Level.

The fact that they specifically point out this rule interaction and also do not specify any method to end the effect early or avoid the counteract attempt (without the feat) makes me seem that this is an intended consequence/limitation to using abilities/spells/items with a polymorph effect.


Goldryno wrote:

"Mutagens

Source Core Rulebook pg. 546
These elixirs, indicated by the mutagen trait, temporarily transmogrify the subject’s body and alter its mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens, and some say they are the only ones reckless enough to use them.

A mutagen always conveys one or more beneficial effects (listed in the Benefit entry) paired with one or more detrimental effects (shown in the Drawback entry). Mutagens are polymorph effects, and a subsequent polymorph effect attempts to counteract an existing effect; the counteract check for a mutagen uses the item’s level and a modifier equal to the that level’s DC – 10, as found on Table 10–5: DCs by Level.

The fact that they specifically point out this rule interaction and also do not specify any method to end the effect early or avoid the counteract attempt (without the feat) makes me seem that this is an intended consequence/limitation to using abilities/spells/items with a polymorph effect.

My book doesn't say that. I don't see it in the Errata either. Odd.

Quote:

Mutagens

These elixirs, indicated by the mutagen trait, temporarily transmogrify the subject’s body and alter its mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens, and some say they are the only ones reckless enough to use them. A mutagen always conveys one or more beneficial effects (listed in the Benefit entry) paired with one or more detrimental effects (shown in the Drawback entry).Mutagens are polymorph effects, meaning you can benefit from only one at a time (see page 301 for more information about the polymorph trait).

Horizon Hunters

Aratorin wrote:
Goldryno wrote:

"Mutagens

Source Core Rulebook pg. 546
These elixirs, indicated by the mutagen trait, temporarily transmogrify the subject’s body and alter its mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens, and some say they are the only ones reckless enough to use them.

A mutagen always conveys one or more beneficial effects (listed in the Benefit entry) paired with one or more detrimental effects (shown in the Drawback entry). Mutagens are polymorph effects, and a subsequent polymorph effect attempts to counteract an existing effect; the counteract check for a mutagen uses the item’s level and a modifier equal to the that level’s DC – 10, as found on Table 10–5: DCs by Level.

The fact that they specifically point out this rule interaction and also do not specify any method to end the effect early or avoid the counteract attempt (without the feat) makes me seem that this is an intended consequence/limitation to using abilities/spells/items with a polymorph effect.

My book doesn't say that. I don't see it in the Errata either. Odd.

Quote:

Mutagens

These elixirs, indicated by the mutagen trait, temporarily transmogrify the subject’s body and alter its mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens, and some say they are the only ones reckless enough to use them. A mutagen always conveys one or more beneficial effects (listed in the Benefit entry) paired with one or more detrimental effects (shown in the Drawback entry).Mutagens are polymorph effects, meaning you can benefit from only one at a time (see page 301 for more information about the polymorph trait).

Interesting. I found the quote in the Alchemical Items section on Nethys.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=702

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

546 says this.

Quote:
Mutagens are polymorph effects, meaning you can benefit from only one at a time (see page 301 for more information about the polymorph trait).

It appears AON chose to alter the wording and bring the relevant information over to get it in one place.

Horizon Hunters

I see. That makes the expectation a bit more murky (unless they did it because Paizo wanted it that way).

Major props to you guys who search in the physical rule book for this info! I own one but I'd be lost without AON.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Goldryno wrote:
Major props to you guys who search in the physical rule book for this info!

I don't think I deserve much credit. I had the PDF open because I was making my daily monster, and since you provided a page number, I checked it. It led to the other page, which was quite clear to me. >_>

Personally, I don't blame Paizo for referencing the numbers more simply. If they repeated the same information over and over again, the book would be much larger, and it's a huge book as it is. If anything, I wish they'd split it in two like D&D, but I understand why they don't.

Horizon Hunters

I appreciate the honesty!

Yeah if we assume competency it seems pretty clear (but as we all know everyone is capable of making mistakes).

With the wording that is there I think it gives strong clues that the intention is that at least with polymorph effects the intention is to have them counteract each other. I am wondering if there are any other examples the community can think of that may interact weirdly?


Cydeth wrote:
Personally, I don't blame Paizo for referencing the numbers more simply. If they repeated the same information over and over again, the book would be much larger, and it's a huge book as it is. If anything, I wish they'd split it in two like D&D, but I understand why they don't.

At least the double-redirect for counterspelling is gone from the playtest.

"See counterspelling: p302"

on page 302:

"<blah blah blah> see counteract checks p540"

*Arbitrary numbers are arbitrary.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Draco18s wrote:

At least the double-redirect for counterspelling is gone from the playtest.

"See counterspelling: p302"

on page 302:

"<blah blah blah> see counteract checks p540"

*Arbitrary numbers are arbitrary.

I remember that one. *nervous eye twitch*

Though to be fair, the Polymorph trait just references counteracting in the middle of it, so... technically it's another double redirect? Gah.

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