Energy Resistance and secondary effects

[Xavram5]

So, I know that if a physical attack has poison or a stun effect and does not get past a targets DR, the secondary effect does not get applied.

But what about Energy Resistance? I could have sworn that it was rules the same way but I cannot find the actual rule.

If I have Energy Resistance (natural ability, NOT the spell...so say, some winter creature with this) Cold 20 and get hit with Frigid Touch and the damage does not get past the 20...is the dragon staggered, even though he took no damage?

If the answer is yes, what about full on Immunity? White Dragon is IMMUNE to cold...but would still get staggered by the spell? That seems wrong to me.

Thoughts?

[blahpers]

As far as I can tell, there is no "rider" rule for spells that deal damage plus some other effect. (For that matter, I have difficulty finding the one for weapons, though everybody plays it that way and developers have certainly expressed that intention.)

I originally thought that frigid touch having the [cold] descriptor would mean that a white dragon immune to the entire effect, but it appears that energy immunity only prevents damage of the energy type specified. It doesn't prevent other effects of spells that happen to share a descriptor matching that energy type.

So I have to conclude that even a white dragon or an ice elemental (!) would be staggered if frigid touch made it through the creature's spell resistance (if any).

[Java Man]

From the Bestiary Universal Monster rules:

Immunity (Ex or Su) A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

And, as a bonus for my favorite pig, from the CRB glossary under Damage Reductuon (second paragraph or so)

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

I cannot find any similiar statement concerning energy resistance, but would hpuse rule it for consistency and logic.

[Xavram5]

So...split decision? No official rules on this out there that someone can source?

[MrCharisma]

Java Man wrote:

From the Bestiary Universal Monster rules:

Immunity (Ex or Su) A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

That looks like an official rule quote to me.

[Java Man]

But that quote covers immunity, not resistance that is enough to negate the damage.

[Archaeik]

Fair enough, however, I personally take it as sufficient evidence to understand intent (combined with the interaction of DR with secondary effects), that secondary effects require at least 1 point of damage to get through defenses in order to trigger.

If you absolutely have to have a written rules source on this to prove it, you may be out of luck.

[Xavram5]

Seems to me that has to be the case, otherwise, take something like a Monk's Evasion ability. They take no damage...but if you went by "its a secondary effect", they would still take the secondary effects, even while taking no damage. Which again, seems weird.

[AegisRom]

Has there been any other discussion elsewhere on this topic?

In the case of Frigid Touch, and the staggered condition, it doesn't specifically state the creature hit is staggered 'because' of the cold damage, so a Xorn with cold immunity hit by Frigid Touch is also immune to the staggered condition as it's implied the condition comes from taking this massive amount of cold damage!?

Not trying to be obtuse, and I see the age of this thread but can find no joy elsewhere.

Thanks.

[Name Violation]

This is all my personal take. Don't like it, sucks to be you.

Your melee touch attack deals 4d6 points of cold damage and causes the target to be staggered for 1 round.

No damage = no "and"

Don't take cold then you don't take "and" effect either

[AegisRom]

I agree. I ruled that way last night in our Hell's Rebels campaign but said I would do my due diligence to confirm before our next session.

Just in case, the "no joy" comment is a turn of phrase I use to mean "no luck", not that I wasn't enjoying the responses. Apologies if there was confusion.

And thanks for your reply!