Attempting to Recover pre-Core boons


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


When do you attempt to recover a boon that's been converted?

Specifically, I'm asking in regards to Myrtle's updated power:

Quote:
When you attempt to recover an Alchemical or Liquid boon, you may instead attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of 7 (☐ 5) plus the card's level. If you succeed, recharge it (☐ or shuffle it into your deck); if you fail, discard it.

According to the conversion guide, Alchemical Items that don't have a recovery roll can gain one, which is nice and straightforward. But what about Alchemical non-items?

Anesthetizing Slime says:

Quote:
After playing this card, you may succeed at a Craft 7 check then discard a card that has the Alchemical trait to recharge this card instead of banishing it.

This is a recovery roll, so I have a choice. I can make a Knowledge 7 check, or a Craft 7 check. But if I use Craft (which is usually easier) I need to also discard another Alchemical card... fair trade off I guess. I believe I'm playing this one properly.

But here's another example that I'm a lot less sure about:
Parade Armor

Quote:
At the end of your turn, banish this card. If proficient with light armors, you may bury it instead.

It has a banish, with a possible bury instead... so is that a form of recovery? Do I get to make a Knowledge check to keep the armor around later (recharge, discard, or reshuffle), or is it a one-trick pony for Myrtle? At least she's now considered "proficient with light armors" I guess, so it's only a bury instead of a banish. But I'd still rather have a chance to bring it back later.

All of the other alchemists have some version of "During recovery, you may [recharge/discard] Alchemical boons instead of banishing them". How would this work with them? Clearly, this is an Alchemical boon that I'm banishing. But am I banishing it during recovery? It doesn't seem to have recovery text on it, so maybe I'm just banishing it at the end of my turn, and nobody else could save it either? The transition rules for recovery say:

Quote:
"If a card you banish to play has a check that can allow you to do something other than banish it, put it in a recovery pile and attempt that check at the end of the turn. You should also put it in a recovery pile if you have a power on your character card or on a displayed card that can allow you to do something other than banish that card."

Parade Armor doesn't have a check to allow you to do something other than banish it (since simply being "proficient with light armors" isn't a check, just a change of status). But how does the second sentence apply? I have a power that allows me to do something other than banish it, but only if it's already in recovery... and I can only put it in recovery if I have a power that allows me to do something other than banish it... and now I feel like this is just a catch-22 along the same lines as Varian and his Sword-Cane. ;-)

OR, can I classify the "if proficient" text as "a power on a displayed card that can allow you to do something other than banish that card"? Then it's own text allows me to consider it recovery-able, which allows me to make my Knowledge check (and allows Damiels/Cogsnap to auto-recharge/discard)?

So... anybody know if that logic-loop is valid, or unneeded? Or am I just out of luck here?


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If a card you banish to play...”

You aren’t banishing Parade Armor to play it so that entire rule doesn’t apply. It doesn’t go into recovery.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Maelwys0 wrote:
... But if I use Craft (which is usually easier) I need to also discard another Alchemical card... I believe I'm playing this one properly.

Yep and, as skizzerz exactly pointed out, because you discard rather than banish the other Alchemical card, you don't get to recover that one. Simple.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:

If a card you banish to play...”

You aren’t banishing Parade Armor to play it so that entire rule doesn’t apply. It doesn’t go into recovery.

On that one I disagree (sorry skizzerz).

See Restoration pre and post Core. Even if discarding (pre-Core) isn't the first thing you do to play the card, it's part of playing it. Post-Core it translates into a recovery process. There is no reason why Parade Armor shouldn't follow the Same process. It should look like any spell that last for a turn.
Thus IMHO "post-Core" Parade Armor is equivalent to:
Post-Core equivalent powers for Parade Armor wrote:

Display this card. While displayed:

* Reduce all damage dealt to you by 3, or by 5 if it is Poison damage, and if proficient with light armors, add 1d6 to your Charisma or Diplomacy non-combat checks.
* At the end of your turn, banish this card.

DURING RECOVERY:
If proficient, you may bury this card.

As a consequence, the armor goes into recovery, Myrtle can attempt to recover it (actually she must like any character has to, considering that "attempt to recover" really means "process the DURING RECOVERY power" - "attempt" here doesn't imply that there is to be a check).

During recovery, Myrtle can of course use her updated power as it can be used "instead" of any recovery process as long as the boon is Alchemical or Liquid.
IMHO.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Frencois wrote:
skizzerz wrote:

If a card you banish to play...”

You aren’t banishing Parade Armor to play it so that entire rule doesn’t apply. It doesn’t go into recovery.

On that one I disagree (sorry skizzerz).

See Restoration pre and post Core. Even if discarding (pre-Core) isn't the first thing you do to play the card, it's part of playing it. Post-Core it translates into a recovery process. There is no reason why Parade Armor shouldn't follow the Same process. It should look like any spell that last for a turn.
Thus IMHO "post-Core" Parade Armor is equivalent to:
Post-Core equivalent powers for Parade Armor wrote:

Display this card. While displayed:

* Reduce all damage dealt to you by 3, or by 5 if it is Poison damage, and if proficient with light armors, add 1d6 to your Charisma or Diplomacy non-combat checks.
* At the end of your turn, banish this card.

DURING RECOVERY:
If proficient, you may bury this card.

As a consequence, the armor goes into recovery, Myrtle can attempt to recover it (actually she must like any character has to, considering that "attempt to recover" really means "process the DURING RECOVERY power" - "attempt" here doesn't imply that there is to be a check).

During recovery, Myrtle can of course use her updated power as it can be used "instead" of any recovery process as long as the boon is Alchemical or Liquid.
IMHO.

Those expanded recovery rules only apply to spells and not other types of boons. See here and notice that spells has a big section specifically for it whereas general recovery conversion has no such thing. Items and allies have a more limited set of expanded recovery rules, but armor does not.

So, yes, there is indeed a reason why armor shouldn’t follow the same process as spells. Because the spell process is unique to spells :)


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I rest my case.


Maelwys0 wrote:
I have a power that allows me to do something other than banish it, but only if it's already in recovery... and I can only put it in recovery if I have a power that allows me to do something other than banish it...

This, and the other Alchemists' powers, are exactly what "you have a power on your character card ... that can allow you to do something other than banish that card" applies to, and what that rule was created for. Because of that rule, the character power allows you to put the cards into recovery, even if those cards don't have a During Recovery power of their own.

---

skizzerz wrote:

If a card you banish to play...”

You aren’t banishing Parade Armor to play it so that entire rule doesn’t apply. It doesn’t go into recovery.

Actually, you can choose to.

Parade Armor, emphasis mine wrote:
At the end of your turn, banish this card. If proficient with light armors, you may bury it instead.

Burying is optional, you can choose to banish it instead - although of course, most characters would almost never want to take that choice.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
foxoftheasterisk wrote:
Maelwys0 wrote:
I have a power that allows me to do something other than banish it, but only if it's already in recovery... and I can only put it in recovery if I have a power that allows me to do something other than banish it...

This, and the other Alchemists' powers, are exactly what "you have a power on your character card ... that can allow you to do something other than banish that card" applies to, and what that rule was created for. Because of that rule, the character power allows you to put the cards into recovery, even if those cards don't have a During Recovery power of their own.

---

skizzerz wrote:

If a card you banish to play...”

You aren’t banishing Parade Armor to play it so that entire rule doesn’t apply. It doesn’t go into recovery.

Actually, you can choose to.

Parade Armor, emphasis mine wrote:
At the end of your turn, banish this card. If proficient with light armors, you may bury it instead.
Burying is optional, you can choose to banish it instead - although of course, most characters would almost never want to take that choice.

"At the end of your turn, banish this card" isn't playing it. You play it by displaying it. Once displayed, all of the rest of the powers happen automatically so the armor is not played again.

Playing a card means doing something with that card (reveal, recharge, display, banish, etc.) to use a power printed on that card. If you aren't doing a thing with that card, or if doing that thing isn't the cost to use a power, then that's just an instruction you follow and doesn't count as playing the card.


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OK so that's our candidate for the weekly can'o'worms contest. Waiting for Vic or Mike....


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:

"At the end of your turn, banish this card" isn't playing it. You play it by displaying it. Once displayed, all of the rest of the powers happen automatically so the armor is not played again.

Playing a card means doing something with that card (reveal, recharge, display, banish, etc.) to use a power printed on that card. If you aren't doing a thing with that card, or if doing that thing isn't the cost to use a power, then that's just an instruction you follow and doesn't count as playing the card.

Whilst I fully agree with this assessment as per the rulebook... I'm more with Frencois here. Frencois' statement that "banish at the end of turn" is still clearly considered 'playing it', regardless of the card type.

There's definitely precedent for "banish at the end of turn" to be covered under the initial playing of a card for the purposes of character powers. Whilst I cannot find the thread right now (and would greatly appreciate if anyone could find it, because I know it exists), there was a statement by Vic at one point that said something to the effect of "everything written on the card as a result of using one of its powers should be considered to be 'playing' it for the purposes of character Powers".

This is actually easily shown in a lot of pre-existing cards. For example, Potion of Heroism or Potion of Beast Skin are displayed, then banished at the end-of-turn, exactly like Parade Armor. (A reminder all of these cards/templates existed before Recovery existed.)

This also applies to a lot of other spells and items that have existed over many sets. However, there has never been a suggestion that an Alchemist could not recharge Potion of Heroism when it gets banished at the end-of-turn just because it wasn't directly being banished for its initial power - furthermore, nothing in the Conversion Guide specifically calls out that it should go into Recovery in such a circumstance, and yet all players intuitively knows that it does. In fact, the Conversion Guide instructions for Items (and spells, for that matter) would suggest that you would change the 'cost' of playing Potion of Heroism (Displaying it) instantly 'banish', therefore rendering it non-usable... unless you interpret the 'banish at end of turn' to being akin to a cost to play the card, which is the whole crux of this thread when discussing Parade Armor.

Mind you, I'm not certain how to handle Parade Armor, because - as mentioned - Armor isn't called out in the same way as Items or Spells (or even Allies) in the Conversion Guide. However, I firmly believe that it's understood by the majority of PACG players that if you display a card for a turn, then banish it at the end-of-turn, then you are indeed banishing it for its power, and all Alchemist character powers have worked off this assumption for many years.


skizzerz wrote:
"At the end of your turn, banish this card" isn't playing it.

If that were true, then Enhance would be impossible to recover at any point. I don't think anyone would argue that that's the case. And I see no functional difference between these two situations.

(I believe that any text that instructs you to move the card printed within the powers section(as opposed to the recovery section) counts as "playing it" or "[action]ing it for its power", though I'm not 100% sure that applies in all cases.)


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah I need to eat crow with that statement; it definitely counts as playing it.

That being said, I’m 120% positive that armor is not intended to go into recovery, because post-Core armor doesn’t go to recovery either. It still uses the same templating as pre-Core where relevant (look at Chain Mail for example).


Alchemists are weird and I honestly don't know if RAI has them recover their armor or not, but RAW definitely does and has basically since they came out.

(This is another reason I wish they had used a different keyword for "put into recovery" - then they could just say "alchemical items, weapons and allies with banish costs should instead say deplete; alchemical armors should not." If that's RAI, that is. But, ah well, que cera cera.)

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