Grabbing and assorted rules rambling (shambling?)

Rules Discussion

Hi, guys! Finally I convinced my players to change from that other RPG to PF2! Unfortunatelly, since we decided to keep the campaign and characters, we have 5 and 6 level characters thrown right in the eye of the storm (figuratively speaking, of course, but no first level tutorial fights for us!).

They are having a blast, but, as it was expected, we got a truckload of questions, some of what I'm putting here:

First, about grabbing and grapple. What is the difference? Both impose flat-footed and immobilized to its target. Also, when you are grabbing someone, are him grabbing you too? Example: the party monk was messing around with a Shambler, and it grabbed him. Is the shambler flat-footed for the rest of the party? Also, the wizard threw a fireball at them, does the monk get to make a save to mitigate the damage? Still about shamblers and grabbing, can the shambler move with the monk grabbed? Can it throw him? We ruled that, to move, the shambler had to "shove him", but the Fortitude DC was 2 points lower, as if flat-footed applied to it. There is an official rule on it? Also is the monk flat-footed to the shamblers attacks, or only for other's attacks? If no, then what is the point in grabbing?

Second, the wizard was ambushed by a ghoul, it got him by total surprise, succeeding in its stealth check. How does should we handle it? It is first in the combat and that is it? It gets a "bonus" round and then the round is handled normally? It gets only an action and then the round is handled normally?

Thanks in advance and sorry for my broken english.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Ok, that's a lot of questions in one post, so I'm just going to take a handful of them right now.

The Grab monster ability and the Grapple task of the Athletics skill apply the same condition. The difference is how they are used. Grapple takes one action, and makes an athletics check vs fortitude. Grab takes one action, can only be done after a successful strike, and does not require any check.

When you grapple a target, you do not also gain the conditions.

You still makes saving throws while grabbed or grappled.

When grabbed, you are flat footed to everyone, including the creature that grabbed you.

Throwing grabbed creatures is not a maneuver that exists by default, though there are abilities like the monk feat Whirling Throw.

Surprise rounds are not a mechanic in 2E. A creature that takes other completely by surprise will benefit from being undetected before it acts, as well as acting first. You may also allow the creature to ready an action, and have a reaction available to use the readied action before its turn, if that is appropriate to the circumstances of the ambush.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Successful grapple makes somebody grabbed, one is an action one is a condition.

No the person grabbing is not flat footed, just the one with the Grabbed condition.

Yes the Monk would get to roll a save for the fireball, nothing states that they wouldn't.

No you cannot move with a grabbed creature unless you have an ability that says you can.

No it could not throw the monk unless it has an ability that says it can.

Flat footed would not apply to shove as it only causes a -2 penalty to AC.

The Monk is flat-footed vs all attacks while grabbed because it has the flat-footed condition.

The ghoul would be undetected to the wizard on the first round making the wizard flat footed to the ghoul until it acted, but otherwise rounds handled normally.

One thing to keep in mind is that abilities and feats do exactly what they say they do and nothing more/less.

Nice, thanks, guys, for the answers. Now that you told me it seems obvious, but I was lost.

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juca wrote:
Nice, thanks, guys, for the answers. Now that you told me it seems obvious, but I was lost.

I think you were probably expecting it to be more complicated, a la PF1, but it is actually quite simple now.

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