Surprise rounds

[Nimor Starseeker]

I don't normally suggest house rules but here goes:

The problem:
Monsters getting a surprise round, but all acting second in the initiative order.
This is worse than actually acting first in initiative order. At least when you act first in initiative, you have a full round worth of actions. In a surprise round, you should have an edge, but you actually might not get an edge if you act second in initiative.

Example:
A group of melee monsters gets the jump on the party, granting a surprise round. They are about 20-40 ft away from the group party. Some of them will be able to move up next the the group party, but they will not be able to attack. What happens next is that after everyone has rolled initiative, the monsters go second. So the entire group get their full actions (swift+move+standard) in round 1 before the group of monsters. The party takes a 5 ft guarded step back and shoot the monsters.

I thought that perhaps I made a bad choice for the melee monsters to move adjacent to the party, maybe they should have gone for cover or taken full defensive actions to boost their ACs.

The proposed solution:
I think if the monsters get the jump on the party, they should skip the surprise round, instead jump into round 1 acting first with a full round worth of actions, because acting first is more advantageous than acting in a surprise round but second in initiative during round 1.

So my house rule would be like this:
Monsters (not players) skip the surprise round and act first. This rule is only for the monsters, not group/party.
Depending on what initiatives were rolled, I would let the monsters get surprise and act first in round 1 if they rolled very well, but if they rolled poorly, skip the surprise round and simply act first in the surprise round, or else their surprise round is kind of a disadvantage.

So am I overthinking this?
Does anyone agree, or should I be taking other actions with my monsters against the party?

[Malach the Merciless]

If the opponents who act in the surprise round don't have any type of ranged weapon, the surprise can only do some much.

Lets look at this through the realm of realism? (Yes I know d20 rules are abstractions). If you were hiding in 60' hallway (And not armed), and waited to pop out and surprise me while I was 40' away down the hallway would I be able to draw a weapon and shoot you before you reach me (and I am not a all powered space fantasy character)? 40' is just over 13 yards it is more than a first down on a football field.

Unless said melee characters can hide until ranged character get closer, there is really no way the won't be cut down before they attack.

[Nimor Starseeker]

I think you have a fair analysis.

There is no partial charge action like there is in Pathfinder.

Within the rules, what would you think is the best action for the monsters?

I think I could have shortened my house rule suggestion down to:
I want the melee monsters to delay their actions during the surprise round until the very start of the 1st round so they can act first with a full set of actions.
The party will no longer be surprised (flat footed) and that might be a fair trade off.

[Garretmander]

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

I think you have a fair analysis.

There is no partial charge action like there is in Pathfinder.

Within the rules, what would you think is the best action for the monsters?

I think I could have shortened my house rule suggestion down to:
I want the melee monsters to delay their actions during the surprise round until the very start of the 1st round so they can act first with a full set of actions.
The party will no longer be surprised (flat footed) and that might be a fair trade off.

I'd either delay so they have full actions, or build the monsters with more initiative.

[Nimor Starseeker]

Garretmander wrote:

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

I think you have a fair analysis.

There is no partial charge action like there is in Pathfinder.

Within the rules, what would you think is the best action for the monsters?

I think I could have shortened my house rule suggestion down to:
I want the melee monsters to delay their actions during the surprise round until the very start of the 1st round so they can act first with a full set of actions.
The party will no longer be surprised (flat footed) and that might be a fair trade off.

I'd either delay so they have full actions, or build the monsters with more initiative.

That is practically what I am doing on the side of monsters. I looked up the rules for delaying actions, and it does unfortunetly no actually seem to allow it, because you have to act after another creature has taken its turn. That's why it has to be an odd house rule. I dont think its overpowered, but rather gives the edge you are supposed to have for getting the jump on the party.

ref: CRB 249

Delay If you aren’t sure what to do when it’s your turn, you can delay taking an action until other characters have taken their turns. You must declare that you are delaying before taking any actions on your turn (this does not require spending any of your actions). After any creature takes its turn in the initiative order, you can come out of delay and take your turn. This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat. If you used a reaction on your previous turn and then chose to delay, you still regain your reaction at the beginning of your original turn, not when you take your delayed actions.

[Malach the Merciless]

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

I think you have a fair analysis.

There is no partial charge action like there is in Pathfinder.

Within the rules, what would you think is the best action for the monsters?

I think I could have shortened my house rule suggestion down to:
I want the melee monsters to delay their actions during the surprise round until the very start of the 1st round so they can act first with a full set of actions.
The party will no longer be surprised (flat footed) and that might be a fair trade off.

Well the best action for Melee Monsters is to hide until PC's are within attack range. In your situation and guess it would depend on how the monsters ended up with surprise? Did they burst into a room knowing the PCs where there? Were they hidden? Firearms end up negating a lot of surprise melee unless the melee is right on top of the players with firearms (which honestly is pretty realistic).

[Nimor Starseeker]

In my case it was the Incident at Absalom Station AP. The party was exploring the space ship and walked into the room with the Akatas. The room was dark and the Akatas are stealthy and became aware of the party before the party noticed them. The Akatas got a surprise round but rolled low initiative and all of them acted second in round 1. I
Moved the Akatas next to the party so to force them to provoke OA when shooting but they simple took guarded steps back and shot at them. It felt a bit off, having a surprise round against the party but tactically at a disadvantage.

[Metaphysician]

If the PCs haven't reached attack range yet, why did the enemies attack? They have surprise, that means they don't need to engage unless they feel like engaging.

[Malach the Merciless]

The Akatas with their high stealth could probably remain hidden and sneak up on the characters retaining surprise.

[Nimor Starseeker]

Metaphysician wrote:

If the PCs haven't reached attack range yet, why did the enemies attack? They have surprise, that means they don't need to engage unless they feel like engaging.

I can see by your comments that I may have started combat to early, and should have had the monsters try to sneak all the way adjacent to the party before starting surprise rounds. That way would have been better for the combat (more of a challenge). The moved into range in the surprise round and took a heavy punishment for losing initiative during round 1. A good sneak would have let them attack during the surprise round.

[Metaphysician]

I mean, depending on the nature of the opponent, it might well make sense for them to make such a screw-up. If they are poorly trained and disciplined, say, or if they were overconfident. However, while the Akata is animal intelligence, its also a stealth predator with a decent stealth rating.

Best to chalk it up to a mistake, take the lessons from it, and move on. Besides, even the best plan can fall apart if there's a good, or bad, enough roll.