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I had a question come up in a PF 1 game recently that we couldn't agree on and I was hoping we could get some clarrification on it.
Does the Diehard Feat keep you from going unconcious from Nonlethal Damage?
NonLethal Damage:Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest......When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.
As in, if I have 20hp total, have taken 16 hp damage and then get struck for 5 nonlethal; does the DieHard feat keep me up, or am I unconcious regardless?
At this point in time, you’d have a better chance of being struck by lightning than getting a dev answer on anything PF1-related. They’re all focused on PF2 now.
Might as well let the players and DM’s hash this out.
Edit: I marked this as an FAQ candidate anyway though.
Might as well let the players and DM’s hash this out.
Yup, I'm also interest in what other players think. If majority think it doesn't make sense as RAW, it could easily be houseruled. Looking for opinions :)
Might as well let the players and DM’s hash this out.Yup, I'm also interest in what other players think. If majority think it doesn't make sense as RAW, it could easily be houseruled. Looking for opinions :)
Well, with that in mind *cracks knuckles*, I'll take a whack at it.
So you're not going to like this, but there is no clear answer per RAW because Diehard does not address Non-lethal damage at all, so therefore as soon as your non-lethal damage exceeds your real HP, you fall unconscious and Diehard doesn't help you. To say that it does affect non-lethal damage, then you're just making things up, unfortunately.
However, I think that's stupid. Here's how I think it *should* work.
Nonlethal Damage
Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.
Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see below), and .
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Staggered and Unconscious
When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.
This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.
Healing Nonlethal Damage
You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
Diehard
You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death’s door.
Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.
Here's how I think it should work:
So in your above example, you have 20HP and get a sword to the heart, spine, and throat, totaling 16 points of damage. Then you get punched in the gut for 5 points of non-lethal damage. Let's say you also have a Con of 16, because Con matters (I'll get to that later on).
I would argue that Diehard can be activated whenever you would fall unconscious due to any kind of HP loss, whether lethal or non-lethal. Strictly RAW, that is not true though.
So in my RAI, if you get hit for 16 dmg, you're now down to 4 HP. You then get a nonlethal gut punch for 5 HP, so your Nonlethal dmg would actually exceed your 4 HP, so normally you would indeed fall unconscious but you wouldn't be bleeding out yet because you still have 4 real HP.
However if you have the Diehard feat, you have the OPTION to carry on as Disabled while you are below 0 HP. So even if you "counted" Non-lethal damage as actual damage, which it isn't, you still have the option to remain Disabled (rather than going unconscious) with the Diehard feat.
So, I get whacked for 16, punched for 5, DM says "you fall unconscious because your non-lethal HP dmg exceeds your actual HP", I say "newp, I'm activating Diehard to immediately stabilize (not actually applicable yet because you still have 4 real HP) and stay conscious and now I'm disabled".
Disabled
A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions, but he can still take swift, immediate, and free actions). He moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the GM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a Quicken Spell spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, he is now in negative hit points and dying.
So, on my turn, I'm going to use my move action to gtfo and find a Cleric. Cleric heals me for 5, so that removes my non-lethal damage as well as 5 lethal damage, so now I'm at 9 HP with 0HP in nonlethal damage.
If I then get non-lethal gut punched for 10dmg, I activate Diehard once again to stay conscious. I then get throat sliced for 10 more damage, which would reduce me to -1 real HP, and 10 non-lethal, so Diehard activates again to automatically stabilize and still remain disabled. I'm still at -1 real HP, and have accumulated 10 non-lethal, but then I get Gut punched again for 12 non-lethal damage, so HERE is where Con and "Non-lethal-becoming-lethal" plays in. I now have -3 HP, because my non-lethal damage is effectively 22 (which exceeds my total 20 HP), but 2 of those non-lethal points have just become Lethal. I'm now at -3HP and 20 non-lethal damage, but I still don't have to make Con checks to avoid losing more damage because of Diehard though. And if I take 13 more lethal or nonlethal damage, I would die, because my Con is 16, and since my non-lethal damage is equal to my total 20 HP, all non-lethal damage automatically becomes lethal damage. Now, on my next turn, I gtfo to the Cleric once again, and he heals me for 11. I'm returned to 8 real HP, and 9 non-lethal HP, so Diehard is still keeping me conscious and disabled at this point. Next round, Cleric heals me for 8 hp, so now my non-lethal damage is 1, and my real HP is 16.
That's personally how I think it should work.
*hides behind a tower shield enchanted with fire resistance for the inevitable flaming*
^—— True.
Would a feat that lets a guy take a sword through the heart and spine and have his throat sliced and still stay up through that trauma and blood loss...
I would argue that there is no such feat.
A sword through the heart is death. Hit points are 5% how much physical trauma you can endure, 95% how well you roll with the punches.To a turnip farmer, 8 damage from a crossbow bolt means a crossbow bolt to the guts, and death soon follows.
To a lvl1 fighter, 8 damage from a crossbow bolt means a crossbow bolt in the leg.
To a lvl15 barbarian, 8 damage from a crossbow bolt means a narrow groove in the shoulder.
You can in real life knock someone out without largely hurting them.
Concussions are a real thing. So is exhaustion.
As such I would rule the opposite of the popular disagreement. Diehard does nothing for non lethal damage.
Sure, but some people, through training or force of will or raw tenacity refuse to stay down. I would argue that those are the ones with Diehard.
Diehard is such a cool, awesome and terrible feat. Let's not take away from it's coolness or add to it's terriblness.
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It's not taking away from it. It's RAW backed up by real life data.
By your measure Diehard should also prevent someone from falling asleep with a sleep spell, because he's such a hardened bad ass.
Doesn't matter how hard you train, getting knocked out is getting knocked out. Plenty of YouTube videos to prove that.
Hell, there is even some videos of guys training passing out.
Diehard makes sense as it works.
It's not taking away from it. It's RAW backed up by real life data.
That's non sequitur. Ruling a feat to be less useful and abiding by the RAW are not mutually exclusive. It's a bad feat. The RAW makes it worse. So I say: change it.
And I think "data" is far too generous of a word.
By your measure Diehard should also prevent someone from falling asleep with a sleep spell, because he's such a hardened bad ass.
Being able to avoid unconsciousness due to damage does not translate into being immune to wanting a nap, no.
Doesn't matter how hard you train, getting knocked out is getting knocked out. Plenty of YouTube videos to prove that.
I'm struggling to understand how that's proof. It's not like we can review people's real-life Con scores or the amount of nonlethal damage they've been dealt, much less their feat selection.
I think it's fairly safe to say that some people are more difficult to beat into unconsciousness than others. Look at professional boxers. Maybe they have a higher Con, or a better hit die, or more levels...or Diehard.
If you're referring to choke holds and that sort of thing, I'd say that's not nonlethal damage, that's a special ability or maneuver or whatever. Nonlethal damage represents blunt trauma that eventually overcomes your ability to endure it, not pressure points that instantly KO you.
Diehard makes sense as it works.
Sure. My point is that it sucks, and the trope of "broken but unbowed" is a powerful one, so give Diehard a boost versus it's lame RAW.
I'd hardly call 12 posts "lengthy", and none of them struck me as particularly rant-y.
I'd be curious what MarkOfTheDragon decided to go with and why.