Observation 1: Dwarf Clerics are fairly iconic.
Observation 2: Dwarf Clerics slot neatly into "warpriest" roles as "heavier armor", "a shield", and "bashing you with a hammer" are all on-brand.
Observation 3: Warpriests who want to go in melee need Str and Con (and some dex) in addition to Wisdom.
Observation 4: Clerics of all stripes benefit greatly from high charisma, since Divine Font is a very powerful class feature.
Observation 5: Dwarves (particularly ones who want str or dex) are bad at charisma.
So how do we do the stats for a Warpriest (of Torag or one of his kin)? The obvious thing would be something like Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Wis 18 Int 10 Cha 8, but then you'd get basically nothing out of divine font and divine font is a huge class feature for clerics.
Now ideally we could get something like a class archetype that replaces divine font with something which is useful to charisma-deficient clerics. But I can't just will class archetypes into being in order to serve characters.
Observation 1: Dwarf Clerics are fairly iconic.
Observation 2: Dwarf Clerics slot neatly into "warpriest" roles as "heavier armor", "a shield", and "bashing you with a hammer" are all on-brand.
Observation 3: Warpriests who want to go in melee need Str and Con (and some dex) in addition to Wisdom.
Observation 4: Clerics of all stripes benefit greatly from high charisma, since Divine Font is a very powerful class feature.
Observation 5: Dwarves (particularly ones who want str or dex) are bad at charisma.So how do we do the stats for a Warpriest (of Torag or one of his kin)? The obvious thing would be something like Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Wis 18 Int 10 Cha 8, but then you'd get basically nothing out of divine font and divine font is a huge class feature for clerics.
Now ideally we could get something like a class archetype that replaces divine font with something which is useful to charisma-deficient clerics. But I can't just will class archetypes into being in order to serve characters.
If you plan to hit things with your hammer and cast buff spells, you don't actually need Wis 18. You could probably also drop the dex to 10 starting out. Pick up Heavy Armor Prof with a general feat, and retrain that when you get Expert Medium armor (by then you'll probably have bumped Dex back up to 12.) If you are willing to take optional flaws, you can dump Dex and Int to get rid of the ancestral Cha penalty.
Alright I would do something like:
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12, then use optional flaws to take Dex and Int to 8 and bring up Cha to 14. Assuming I'm already all in on Torag, I'd take the Champion dedication at 2nd level and become an MC Paladin. That would let me keep heavy armor throughout my career, and let me keep boosting Str, Con, Wis, Cha at levels 1/10/15.
If I ever create another warpriest I have envisioned a Dwarf using a starting lineup of Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Wis 14 Int 10 Cha 12, however this will forever leave you behind 1 or 2 points (only -1 from level5 onwards) for WIS related skills , counteract checks, DCs and spell to-hit so it is a major decision as it will limit your spell options.
I don't understand your query.
There are choices to be made and one can't be supreme in all areas.
This seems natural.
The stats you give (which mirror a build I've considered) does forfeit a strong single ability of Clerics for the sake of being good at melee and excellent at offensive spells and countering. I reckon that's been the standard cost for Dwarf Clerics ever since Charisma got tied to Channeling. And you'd have a full caster w/ a max stat who can actually manage to do more than cast. That's an effective build.
And if you flatten out the stats a bit, you can make good use of the 4-stats boosts. You likely don't need to go over Dex 12 and Warpriests fall behind on proficiency for offensive casting.
So for 5th-9th you might have
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 12
Or (using a different base), at 10th-14th
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 18, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 16
My favorite would be getting the Charisma Apex item, taking Cha 8 to 18, though sadly that's only an end-of-campaign ploy. Might do for a high-level one-shot.
Personally, I'd likely go Dex 10/Full Plate myself so all the boosts go to Str/Con/Wis/Cha.
I think for now if you're aiming for a Warpriest who isn't using either Wisdom for offensive casting or Charisma for lots of Divine Font, you're probably better off going Champion or dipping Cleric into something or dipping something into Cleric.
The advantage of the Warpriest Cleric is that you have the full Cleric casting + Divine Font + Cleric class feats focused on healing and other thematically appropriate bonuses. Dwarven Warpriests are totally doable, you just can't also afford the stat array of a Champion or Fighter to get the most out of the chassis.
I'd bring down Dex, bring down Con to 12, and then if you really want more Divine Font you might have to take an optional penalty. Otherwise, like Castilliano said, you gotta make some decisions and the character can't be adept in everything at once.
Using Dex10 MC'ing into Champion for heavy armor...
I think for now if you're aiming for a Warpriest who isn't using either Wisdom for offensive casting or Charisma for lots of Divine Font, you're probably better off going Champion or dipping Cleric into something or dipping something into Cleric.
That's a good point. If your PF1 vision for the character was full Cleric, then the Warpriest doctrine is a good fit. However, if in PF1 you'd have built a Cleric/Fighter or a Warpriest, I think you'd be better off going Fighter-> MC Cleric. Obviously you'd need to go full bore on the MC part and make it more than a dip. Something like:
1)Fighter (Sudden Charge?)2)MC Cleric
4)Basic Spellcasting
6)Basic Dogma -> Domain Initiate or Emblazon Armament
8) Divine Breadth
10) Fighter feat (Certain Strike?)
12) Expert Cleric Spellcasting
14) Fighter feat (Desperate Finisher?)
16)Advanced Dogma -> Advanced Domain or Emblazon Energy
18)Master Cleric Spellcasting
20)Fighter Capstone
Sometimes we need to separate themes from names of mechanics. I could see martial followers of Torag going this route instead of the Warpriest doctrine Cleric. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be called Warpriests in-universe.
So my concept was a warpriest of Magrim/the Dwarven Pantheon who was a Lastwall Refugee, eventually taking the Lastwall Sentry archetype for Reactive Shield and the Knight Vigilant for Aegis of Arnisant. To that end I kind of wanted huge Wis since the counteract check is a religion check.
So my concept was a warpriest of Magrim/the Dwarven Pantheon who was a Lastwall Refugee, eventually taking the Lastwall Sentry archetype for Reactive Shield and the Knight Vigilant for Aegis of Arnisant. To that end I kind of wanted huge Wis since the counteract check is a religion check.
Fair. Here's how I'd approach it from the Fighter side:
1)Fighter (Reactive Shield)2)MC Cleric
4)Basic Spellcasting
6)Basic Dogma -> Emblazon Armament (Shield)
8) Knight Vigilant
10) Filler: retrain into Divine Breadth at 14th level
12) Aegis of Arnisant
14) Expert Cleric Spellcasting
16)Advanced Dogma -> Emblazon Energy
18)Master Cleric Spellcasting
20)Boundless Reprisals: Lets you use Aegis of Arnisant against everyone
With fighter as your base class, there's no need to go Lastwall Sentry first if all you wanted was Reactive Shield. You'll enter Night Vigilant two levels later because you need to pick up 2 Cleric feats before you can take another Dedication, but Emblazon Armament (Shield) is on brand for your concept.
Starting with a Wis 16 vs 18 is only 1 less on your religion check at levels 12,13,14, and 20. (I'm only counting levels you have access to the Aegis).
That said, if you'd prefer to go the Warpriest Doctrine Route, Knight in Shining Armor in the Knight Vigilant archetype solves your AC problem. Tank Dex, grab Heavy armor proficiency with your first General Feat, and enjoy the Bullwark property of your fullplate.
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To sum up, you can do this as a Warpriest doctrine Cleric. In my mind, you've got two choices.
1) Start with a CHA of 10-14, depending on how much pain you can take elsewhere. 10 Dex is doable. 12 Con is workable. (In either case, General Feats can pick up the slack there.) You may or may not need that 18 Wis. And keep advancing CHA when you get ability score bumps, since each bump means another Heal at your highest level.
2) Say "forget about it" and keep the 8 CHA, not even bothering to advance it. Late in your character's build, spring for that Circlet of Persuasion, and marvel at the 5 slots of Heal you now get each day.
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I don't understand your query.
There are choices to be made and one can't be supreme in all areas.
This seems natural.The stats you give (which mirror a build I've considered) does forfeit a strong single ability of Clerics for the sake of being good at melee and excellent at offensive spells and countering. I reckon that's been the standard cost for Dwarf Clerics ever since Charisma got tied to Channeling. And you'd have a full caster w/ a max stat who can actually manage to do more than cast. That's an effective build.
And if you flatten out the stats a bit, you can make good use of the 4-stats boosts. You likely don't need to go over Dex 12 and Warpriests fall behind on proficiency for offensive casting.
So for 5th-9th you might have
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 12
Or (using a different base), at 10th-14th
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 18, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 16
My favorite would be getting the Charisma Apex item, taking Cha 8 to 18, though sadly that's only an end-of-campaign ploy. Might do for a high-level one-shot.Personally, I'd likely go Dex 10/Full Plate myself so all the boosts go to Str/Con/Wis/Cha.
In your example, how did his Charisma jump from 12 at 9th level to 16 at 10th level? According to the rules for ability boosts, whenever you get multiple ability boosts at once (Levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20) all boosts must be spent on different abilities (see pg 20 of the CRB). So he can't spend 2 of his lvl 10 boosts on Charisma. He could spend 1 at 10th to raise it to 14, and then another boost at 15th to raise it to 16.
In your example, how did his Charisma jump from 12 at 9th level to 16 at 10th level? According to the rules for ability boosts, whenever you get multiple ability boosts at once (Levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20) all boosts must be spent on different abilities (see pg 20 of the CRB). So he can't spend 2 of his lvl 10 boosts on Charisma. He could spend 1 at 10th to raise it to 14, and then another boost at 15th to raise it to 16.I don't understand your query.
There are choices to be made and one can't be supreme in all areas.
This seems natural.The stats you give (which mirror a build I've considered) does forfeit a strong single ability of Clerics for the sake of being good at melee and excellent at offensive spells and countering. I reckon that's been the standard cost for Dwarf Clerics ever since Charisma got tied to Channeling. And you'd have a full caster w/ a max stat who can actually manage to do more than cast. That's an effective build.
And if you flatten out the stats a bit, you can make good use of the 4-stats boosts. You likely don't need to go over Dex 12 and Warpriests fall behind on proficiency for offensive casting.
So for 5th-9th you might have
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 12
Or (using a different base), at 10th-14th
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 18, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 16
My favorite would be getting the Charisma Apex item, taking Cha 8 to 18, though sadly that's only an end-of-campaign ploy. Might do for a high-level one-shot.Personally, I'd likely go Dex 10/Full Plate myself so all the boosts go to Str/Con/Wis/Cha.
As stated, it uses a different base, as in different starting stats.
It's not a continuation of the 5th-9th level version. It's not this at 5th to 9th then that. It's this OR perhaps that if moving into higher levels.One facet of character design is choosing where you want to peak, and with 4 boosted stats and smaller boosts after 18, there are often two "best" builds depending on if you want to peak 5-9th & 15-19th or 10-14th & 20th.
If taking enough stats to 18 or starting at higher levels (especially if an Apex item is available), even those level breakdowns could be broken up further.