That Barghest though

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Zaister wrote:

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

It is a DC35 athletics check that requires the charau-ka to climb "an inverted smooth surface".

I'm trying to reconstruct that, where do you gt the "inverted smooth surface" DC from?

What fumarole said.

The hole is melted through the ceiling of the room below. Meaning if you want to climb out you need to climb up a wall, along the ceiling and out.

[thejeff]

Uchuujin wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

From the adventure.

** spoiler omitted **

Strangely there actually nothing different rules wise between any given creatures Climb speeds. A Charau-ka can climb just as well as a spider.

Yeah, I might be missing something, but near as I can tell, there's no rule suggesting any difference or that spiders can move freely on ceilings. The flaw seems to be rather that the character said to have escaped could not have done so that way.

The Spider Climb spell explicitly lets you do so, but I can't find a rule that lets spiders do so.

[Joana]

thejeff wrote:

Uchuujin wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

From the adventure.

** spoiler omitted **

Strangely there actually nothing different rules wise between any given creatures Climb speeds. A Charau-ka can climb just as well as a spider.

Yeah, I might be missing something, but near as I can tell, there's no rule suggesting any difference or that spiders can move freely on ceilings. The flaw seems to be rather that the character said to have escaped could not have done so that way.

The Spider Climb spell explicitly lets you do so, but I can't find a rule that lets spiders do so.

Spiders and charau-ka alike have to make Athletics checks to do so. As you say, with a +8, the NPC in question couldn't have done it either.

Actual spiders couldn't traverse a ceiling in P1e by RAW, either, (note that a flat vertical or inverted surface cannot be climbed at any DC, and having a Climb speed just let them take 10), but the spell explicitly gave the ability to do it. That language is missing from the P2e version of spider climb.

[Kennethray]

Climb speed in CRB states that you might have to make a check for extremely difficult surfaces. The text for this specific climb calls out that spiders would not have to make it while the charau-ka do.

[thejeff]

Kennethray wrote:

Climb speed in CRB states that you might have to make a check for extremely difficult surfaces. The text for this specific climb calls out that spiders would not have to make it while the charau-ka do.

I guess you can read it that way, but the more natural reading to me isn't that there's something special about this specific climb, but that spiders are normally able to "navigating a smooth inverted surface", which is something we'd expect, but isn't present anywhere in the rules. Mechanically, there's no difference between the two creatures in climbing ability, though that appears to be the intent.

[Curgyr]

Mechanically, it might not appear at face value that there's anything different between a spider's climb speed and a charau-ka, but I think this is where we as players have to take a step back and remember we're using the rules to tell a story in a world with things that work, often, as in our own world. A spider can climb on a ceiling and on smooth walls. We know this, not just because the Hunting Spider's Descend on a Web ability allows it to "move straight down ... suspended by a web line", which it only makes sense to do from a ceiling (or, I suppose, very specific kinds of walls and overhangs?), or page 55 of Hellknight Hill which confirms that said hunting spiders "drop from their perches on the ceiling", but because we've seen spiders on our walls and ceilings. Now, imagine a monkey stuck to your wall like Spider-Man! We know this to not be possible for our monkeys, even though we know they're good climbers. So a fantasy monkey would have to be using some kind of magical ability or specifically different physiology to climb like a spider (which the cultists aren't).

Similarly, a Fly speed on its own doesn't give any altitude limits. And, in googling random crap to see if I could make a point with that, I discovered that a bald eagle is usually listed as flying around 10,000-15,000 feet (googled them because they have a fly speed of 60 ft in Pathfinder 2e), while I saw that "maximum height" for a common crane is 33,000 feet which "allows them to avoid eagles in mountain passes". Meanwhile, a flash beetle has a flight speed, too! And... look, I don't know where to find data on a 3 foot long beetle, but I'd be surprised to see an oversized firefly up around where an eagle could fly.

Point is, I don't think we can say Amanda Hamon or James Jacobs wrote a bad adventure because they relied on spiders doing a thing that spiders can demonstrably do and monkey-analogs not being able to do a thing monkeys demonstrably cannot do.

And Kennethray is right: if you look closer, mechanically, the core rules agree we need to step back and remember the rules are supposed to make sense. CRB 463 states: "You might still have to attempt Athletics checks ... to Climb extremely difficulty surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings" (emphasis mine). It doesn't give guidance as to when you might or might not have to make these checks - those are the mechanics giving the GM (or AP writers) license to make calls based on what makes sense. So, mechanically, the rules absolutely differentiate between the creatures in climbing ability. Think about it: you want to know if a creature can Climb on the ceiling because you see Climb speed, so you flip to page 463 where the rules for Climb speeds are located. It says you "might have to make a check" to do that. It says nothing else. The book has forced you to ask your GM, so you ask the GM "hey, does this creature have to do that?" Now, your GM, having seen a spider, says "I think spiders are normally able to navigate a smooth inverted surface, so I don't think a spider has to do that."

Normally I'm very, obnoxiously keen on overcomplicating things, but I think this is one of those situations where we can safely rely on common sense.

[thejeff]

Curgyr wrote:

Mechanically, it might not appear at face value that there's anything different between a spider's climb speed and a charau-ka, but I think this is where we as players have to take a step back and remember we're using the rules to tell a story in a world with things that work, often, as in our own world. A spider can climb on a ceiling and on smooth walls. We know this, not just because the Hunting Spider's Descend on a Web ability allows it to "move straight down ... suspended by a web line", which it only makes sense to do from a ceiling (or, I suppose, very specific kinds of walls and overhangs?), or page 55 of Hellknight Hill which confirms that said hunting spiders "drop from their perches on the ceiling", but because we've seen spiders on our walls and ceilings. Now, imagine a monkey stuck to your wall like Spider-Man! We know this to not be possible for our monkeys, even though we know they're good climbers. So a fantasy monkey would have to be using some kind of magical ability or specifically different physiology to climb like a spider (which the cultists aren't).

Similarly, a Fly speed on its own doesn't give any altitude limits. And, in googling random crap to see if I could make a point with that, I discovered that a bald eagle is usually listed as flying around 10,000-15,000 feet (googled them because they have a fly speed of 60 ft in Pathfinder 2e), while I saw that "maximum height" for a common crane is 33,000 feet which "allows them to avoid eagles in mountain passes". Meanwhile, a flash beetle has a flight speed, too! And... look, I don't know where to find data on a 3 foot long beetle, but I'd be surprised to see an oversized firefly up around where an eagle could fly.

Point is, I don't think we can say Amanda Hamon or James Jacobs wrote a bad adventure because they relied on spiders doing a thing that spiders can demonstrably do and monkey-analogs not being able to do a thing monkeys demonstrably cannot do.

And Kennethray...

Except if you're relying on real world analogues, spiders can walk on ceilings mostly because they're tiny not because of any special spider powers. Human sized spiders wouldn't be able to do so. (Or breathe, for that matter.)

We can go by "Rule of Cool" to assume that spider-analogues can do what normal spiders can do, but I think a lot of us would rather see that codified in the monster abilities or the skills themselves than to push it off onto the GM.

[Ice Titan]

Curgyr wrote:

Point is, I don't think we can say Amanda Hamon or James Jacobs wrote a bad adventure because they relied on spiders doing a thing that spiders can demonstrably do and monkey-analogs not being able to do a thing monkeys demonstrably cannot do.

But no one is saying that.

I've changed a lot of names and genders and traits of non-player characters in my adventure path runs as well, but that doesn't mean they were bad adventures. I changed a TON of things in Hell's Rebels but I still consider it one of the best adventures Paizo's put out. Hellknight Hill is solidly above-average if you don't hold the new edition glitches against them.

But that's neither here or there.

[Captain Morgan]

My party, much to my surprise, whooped Raldur pretty thoroughly. A big part of this luck with some really high damage rolls. I've also been playing with the critical hit deck lately, and that was definitely a factor. The warpriest opened with a trident throw crit that not only dealt 34 damage, but hit Raldor's kidney and made him Sickened 2. That penalty really helped the party pour on the pressure. Raldur crit the giant barbarian for 48 damage, but he had so many hit points he stayed on his feat and kept grappling the dude.

I also added the Choppy Scepter weapon made on these forums, by Ruzza IIRC. It was a big hit.

[Ruzza]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I also added the Choppy Scepter weapon made on these forums, by Ruzza IIRC. It was a big hit.

SUPER flattering. The weapon has become a pretty big thing at my table, and I've been weaving it into the story. It helps that the player who owns it is very much into roleplaying, so it's a lot easier to go hog wild.

Choppy's Introduction
Choppy, growing in power

[Captain Morgan]

Ruzza wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

I also added the Choppy Scepter weapon made on these forums, by Ruzza IIRC. It was a big hit.

SUPER flattering. The weapon has become a pretty big thing at my table, and I've been weaving it into the story. It helps that the player who owns it is very much into roleplaying, so it's a lot easier to go hog wild.

Choppy's Introduction
Choppy, growing in power

Oh dang. Can you spoil your long-term plans for it?

[Ruzza]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Oh dang. Can you spoil your long-term plans for it?

A lot of it is by the seat of my pants, but the general overarching idea is something like...

My barbarian player wrote in his backstory that his character met a gold dragon in the forests near Breachill. He survived with a scar and a gold dragon scale that made him bigger than other goblins. Let me assure that my jaw dropped when I read this. He had no idea what was in the AP, he just wanted to write an interesting background and knew that dragons were involved. He also wanted his character to be most mistrustful and mystified by dragons, so it all works.

Knowing I couldn't make that dragon Mengkare, I tried to think about what another gold dragon near Breachill would mean. After another player came to me with their plans to play a red draconic sorcerer who was hiding their identity, my plans started to come together.

I saw Mengkare as a figure who had followers who weren't always on the same page as him. Zealots who acted more like fans than actual believers in his plans. So I created a group of metallic dragons called the Scions who believe that they're protecting Golarion by stamping out the influence of Dahak where ever it may be. They've been hounding after the sorcerer in my party. One of them, the gold dragon seen by the barbarian, even created magically empowered weapons to give to his human followers to stand guard over key areas where Dahak could strike. These weapons are forged from his blood and grant the wielder great power.

Man, it is super embarrassing typing home game stuff. It reads a little like middle school stories.

But regardless, I've introduced some of the Scions to the players already as a way to put them on edge and throw some suspicion on the sorcerer. Come book 4, I was planning on having the Scions be in Kovlar, trying to determine what to do with Veshumirix. This includes the gold dragon who created the weapons and is hunting the sorcerer (and also drove the barbarian's mother into a blood feud with Breachill, but that's another story). A bunch of plans there, but using it as a little tip off to my players that there is a larger battle at hand than stopping the Scarlet Triad.

I am fairly certain the dragon will survive and then make yet another appearance in book 6 for the group.

[O'Mouza]

Ruzza wrote:

Choppy's Introduction
Choppy, growing in power

Hi Ruzza, can I ask how do you created the item template or if you have a blank one to share with us?

[Ruzza]

O'Mouza wrote:

Hi Ruzza, can I ask how do you created the item template or if you have a blank one to share with us?

I wish I were more computer-savvy, but I slapped this together with Photoshop.

That said, I made these before I knew about this site, which may be what you're looking for!

[O'Mouza]

Ruzza wrote:

That said, I made these before I knew about this site, which may be what you're looking for!

Yes, fantastic. Thank you!

Now i just need to understand how to add more traits :S

[O'Mouza]

Ok guys my party has arrived to Raldurr and...how can they beat him?
How do your parties manage to kill him?
Did you helped them fudging something?

My party composition is: Fighter (with wizard dedication), Rogue, Sorcerer, Druid...but there is no way they can stand an enemy that critically hit every round at least one time on average (not with the damage Raldarr does).

[Ruzza]

Ralldar is a very difficult encounter for everyone. As we've talked about in this thread and others, it will easily handle those unprepared. That means using actions to negate as many of Ralldar's advantages as possible.

PCs should be doing things like Tripping and Striding away to waste its actions. Fear spells should be used to keep it frightened while also buffing teammates. These tactics should become pretty commonplace as encounters become more difficult.

[1bent1]

My group had a hard go of it. No death but that wasn't from lack of trying. Party was a Wizard (Evocation), Rogue (Thief), Champion (Redeemer) and Cleric (warpriest).

With Ralldar becoming Huge his reach was considerable. the dice weren't with the party to the point the Rogue switched dice with me to prove it was her and not the dice that was cursed (she indeed was curse with poor rolls that night).

First the wizard went down to an AoO, then next the Cleric to the same and the Rogue fell to a crit. The Champion was able to use his last LoH to get the Cleric up and finally able to down Ralldar.

The problem was the persistent Poison damage, it threatened to kill several people. the flat check was very difficult for people to hit.

Dying, Recovery and Persistent damage and Wounded were learned well that night.

[Harles]

My group got trounced and it wasn't even close. The party critically failed the only way to get out of the fight (DC 27 Deception or the creature flies into a rage). The two best warriors dying out within two rounds, hardly a dent made in the monster. The only thing keeping this from being a TPK was GM mercy.
Running this by the book (which I did, trying to accurately test PF2) is a bad idea. Unless you have the monster make obviously suboptimal actions (which isn't described in the text) or unless your group gets an amazing streak of luck, it's a TPK. Just a random encounter that the party has no connection to, no bearing on the rest of the campaign, no point to even being there.
So I nearly destroyed my campaign with this encounter. Nearly ended my group's willingness to test PF2.

[LeftyTheBard]

My group didn't have a huge issue with the barghest, I didn't so much nerf him as I nerfed the previous encounters, leaving the tixitog out entirely, and letting them have a diplomatic resolution to the spiders with Renali's help, and hence a warning about the barghest.

This was a funny encounter as we have a CN/CE goblin ranger who worships Zarongel, one of the goblin deities, and a barghest. Goblin ranger insists on honoring barghests as the progenitors of goblin kind. Party enters the chamber, announces their presence, and barghest makes his first demand, I added some additional insults over what's in the book, including "pathetic slave". Goblin ranger delivers the weapons to him, happily, the rest of the party preparing to start combat.

The second demand, for the skull of the spider and skeleton of a human, the goblin ranger immediately starts considering how to comply. I suspect the goblin ranger would have happily do anything for the barghest.

The rest of the party initiates combat, goblin ranger is the closest to the barghest and bears the brunt of first-round attacks, including a ~30 damage crit, the barghest screaming at him for being a betrayer for leading the party to him. Goblin ranger runs into one of the tunnels to sulk. At round three or four, the barghest dimension doors into the tunnel to seek out goblin ranger. Here the party is able to gang up with some flanking and finish him.

There's some mostly harmless intraparty conflict, goblin ranger gets a hero point, and they move on. If the party had never attacked though, there's a chance that the goblin ranger is still there, answering the delusional demands of the barghest with a big smile on his face as the party moves on.

[Fumarole]

My party didn't fight the tixitog, as soon as they noticed it they noped out of there. They also didn't fight the spiders as the party druid was able to prevent any conflict there.

The barghest gave them a tough time; they barely scraped by with help from Renali and some well used Plot Twists. The party rogue had taken Quick Squeeze when she hit level four, so that helped her escape into the small tunnel when she was in trouble.

It was a close call, but a worthwhile encounter that taught the party not to immediately leap into combat when they perceive (what they think is) a weak foe.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Harles wrote:

My group got trounced and it wasn't even close. The party critically failed the only way to get out of the fight (DC 27 Deception or the creature flies into a rage). The two best warriors dying out within two rounds, hardly a dent made in the monster. The only thing keeping this from being a TPK was GM mercy.

Running this by the book (which I did, trying to accurately test PF2) is a bad idea. Unless you have the monster make obviously suboptimal actions (which isn't described in the text) or unless your group gets an amazing streak of luck, it's a TPK. Just a random encounter that the party has no connection to, no bearing on the rest of the campaign, no point to even being there.
So I nearly destroyed my campaign with this encounter. Nearly ended my group's willingness to test PF2.

The encounter is there to teach players not to assume victory in all scenarios and to bargain/avoid some foes.

It does however need better guidance in a side bar or something because if played tactically it is a 100% meat grinder for a party of four level 5 characters. Even with repeated crits 10 resistance against everying other than force is too much for fresh level 5 characters.

I personally think him being insane and having the retreat clause written should tip GMs off to not playing him too intelligent. But that is separate.

[Fumarole]

As written the party should be 4th level at this point, not 5th.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Fumarole wrote:

As written the party should be 4th level at this point, not 5th.

Not according to the AP

"The PC's should be 4th level before they enter the cavern complex around Alset's Ring"

The exp rewards up to this point support that as well.

[Demonknight]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

As written the party should be 4th level at this point, not 5th.

Not according to the AP

"The PC's should be 4th level before they enter the cavern complex around Alset's Ring"

The exp rewards up to this point support that as well.

No, according to the AP they would be 4th level when they encounter Raldar. I do not see your doubt about this according to written in the AP:

"The PCs should be 4th level before they enter the cavern
complex around Alseta’s Ring."

The party is to level up after the fight with Voz.

"The PCs should reach 5th level by the time they complete
the adventure."

And indeed even the encounters in there show they are made for a 4th level party
Every one of them is showing his difficulty for a level 4 party...

[Fumarole]

Demonknight wrote:

And indeed even the encounters in there show they are made for a 4th level party

Every one of them is showing his difficulty for a level 4 party...

Yes indeed:

D3. Goblin-God’s Throne Severe 4

It's a severe encounter (level+3) for a 4th level party.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Demonknight wrote:

No, according to the AP they would be 4th level when they encounter Raldar. I do not see your doubt about this according to written in the AP:

"The PCs should be 4th level before they enter the cavern
complex around Alseta’s Ring."

The party is to level up after the fight with Voz.

"The PCs should reach 5th level by the time they complete
the adventure."

And indeed even the encounters in there show they are made for a 4th level party
Every one of them is showing his difficulty for a level 4 party...

Complete brain failure on my part -laughs-

But yeah, regardless my original point didn't change with the level.