Two-Handed Fighter build help


Advice

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Grand Lodge

What I'm ultimately saying. Everything is down to personal interpretation outside of one hard Paizo point of view, which lead to these usual kerfuffles.


BluePikachu wrote:

How does;

Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Goblin Cleaver

Sound?

Then taking Steel Soul at 4th, Furious Focus at 5th, Vital Strike at 6th, Weapon Focus at 7th?, Weapon Specialization at 8th, Critical Focus at 9th, either Greater Weapon Focus or Hammer the Gap at 10th, and Cleave through at 11th.

'

Vital Strike is a poor choice since you can't Cleave and use it at the same time, which should be your main strategy if not full-attacking.
Critical Focus is not much use to you, since you're using a weapon that only threatens a critical hit on a natural 20.
Hammer the Gap would at the very best just give you one more damage per turn if your Full-Attack routine has two attacks, and wouldn't work with Cleave or Vital Strike.

Since you really want to enlarge yourself for Goblin Cleaver (and more damage), which lowers your dexterity further, you could just wait with Combat Reflexes as you mentioned earlier.

===

Proposed feats:

Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes Additional Traits (Glory of Old, Bruising Intellect), Goblin Cleaver

4th Great Cleave, 5th Hurtful, 6th Cornugon Smash

Great Cleave is needed if you want to attack more than two opponents with Goblin Cleaver, which you definitely want if you find yourself in hordes of them.

Cornugon Smash lets you Intimidate someone as a free action (a non-action) when you attack them, and Hurtful would then give you a Swift action attack on that enemy. So at lv 6 if you Full-Attacked someone you would get to attack them thrice (if you manage your Intimidate check). And it can also be used during your Cleave to attack one enemy twice.

The two traits (Glory of Old and Bruising Intellect) would both help your saves and allow you to use Intelligence instead of Charisma for Intimidate. With your stats that's worth a +4 bonus.


Vital Strike is a poor choice since you can't Cleave and use it at the same time, which should be your main strategy if not full-attacking.

Critical Focus is not much use to you, since you're using a weapon that only threatens a critical hit on a natural 20.
Hammer the Gap would at the very best just give you one more damage per turn if your Full-Attack routine has two attacks, and wouldn't work with Cleave or Vital Strike.

I still like Vital Strike for damaging the enemies we are going to face that might not be goblins.

Since you really want to enlarge yourself for Goblin Cleaver (and more damage), which lowers your dexterity further, you could just wait with Combat Reflexes as you mentioned earlier.

How do I actually enlarge myself?

Proposed feats:

Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes Additional Traits (Glory of Old, Bruising Intellect), Goblin Cleaver

Thats actually a good idea, my dex really isn't gonna go up and I like the idea of intimidation.

4th Great Cleave, 5th Hurtful, 6th Cornugon Smash

Great Cleave is needed if you want to attack more than two opponents with Goblin Cleaver, which you definitely want if you find yourself in hordes of them.

Now that I reread and understand Great Cleave, ty btw, Thats definitely a better path.

Cornugon Smash lets you Intimidate someone as a free action (a non-action) when you attack them, and Hurtful would then give you a Swift action attack on that enemy. So at lv 6 if you Full-Attacked someone you would get to attack them thrice (if you manage your Intimidate check). And it can also be used during your Cleave to attack one enemy twice.

The two traits (Glory of Old and Bruising Intellect) would both help your saves and allow you to use Intelligence instead of Charisma for Intimidate. With your stats that's worth a +4 bonus.

I agree


Apparently I have not figured out quoting correctly...


If you just click the "reply" button it should quote for you automatically.

Or look below the text box and you'll see a section that says: "How to format your text" with a button that says: "Show"

Grand Lodge

I would prioritize Vital Strike over Cleave because of the lack of guarantee about having multiple targets, a side point is that it might be better against BBEGs. But it's ultimately down about how the player wants to fight better against.


BluePikachu wrote:
Apparently I have not figured out quoting correctly...

You start a quote with either "[Q­UOTE­]" or "[Q­UOTE­=Name]", and you end a quote with "[/QU­OTE]". Lower case works as well. Everything between the two parts gets quoted. You can make quotes within quotes, i.e. [QU­OTE=Person 1][QU­­OTE=Person 2]Text 2[/QU­OTE]Text 1[/QU­OTE]*. The "/" always denotes ending the code part (in this case the quote, but the same principle stands for using bold [b­][/b­], italics [i­][/i­], and so on). Your mistake was putting the / containing part in the front as well.

Note: Just don't copy from this post, as I've broken up the code for showcase purposes.

*) Result:

Person 1 wrote:
Person 2 wrote:
Text 2
Text 1


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BluePikachu wrote:
I still like Vital Strike for damaging the enemies we are going to face that might not be goblins.

Vital Strike is available when you get BAB +6, which is also the exact moment when you get your additional attack at a -5 penalty when using the Full-Attack action (see how it says BAB +6/+1 in the class progression). And you can't make a Full-Attack while using Vital Strike either.

If you are in a position to full-attack an enemy, that will deal more damage than using Vital Strike unless the enemy's AC is making it hard for you to hit with your first attack (if you miss on a 14).
And it can't be used on a charge either, so the only time it should be used is in situations where you could just have chosen to Cleave instead. And if you were already forced to move the least you could do is to make sure you can Cleave.

Then if a friendly spellcaster has cast Haste on you it's never worth considering using Vital strike in place of a Full-Attack, since you're then weighing three attacks (+Hurtful) against just your Vital Strike (+Hurtful).
And as you level up the Vital Strike portion of your damage becomes smaller and smaller, especially if you use weapon properties such as Holy or Bane which wouldn't be multiplied with Vital Strike.

BluePikachu wrote:
How do I actually enlarge myself?

'

1) Friendly Spellcaster
2) Friendly Spellcaster with a Wand of Enlarge Person
3) Potions of Enlarge Person
4) Placing one level in a class with Enlarge Person so that you can use Wands without needing the Use Magic Device skill
5) Placing one level in a class with swift action enlargement


Derklord wrote:
BluePikachu wrote:
Apparently I have not figured out quoting correctly...

You start a quote with either "[Q­UOTE­]" or "[Q­UOTE­=Name]", and you end a quote with "[/QU­OTE]". Lower case works as well. Everything between the two parts gets quoted. You can make quotes within quotes, i.e. [QU­OTE=Person 1][QU­­OTE=Person 2]Text 2[/QU­OTE]Text 1[/QU­OTE]*. The "/" always denotes ending the code part (in this case the quote, but the same principle stands for using bold [b­][/b­], italics [i­][/i­], and so on). Your mistake was putting the / containing part in the front as well.

Note: Just don't copy from this post, as I've broken up the code for showcase purposes.

*) Result:

Person 1 wrote:
Person 2 wrote:
Text 2
Text 1

Ohhhh


Is Cleaving Finish something to consider? Or Orc hewer


Wonderstell wrote:
BluePikachu wrote:
I still like Vital Strike for damaging the enemies we are going to face that might not be goblins.

Vital Strike is available when you get BAB +6, which is also the exact moment when you get your additional attack at a -5 penalty when using the Full-Attack action (see how it says BAB +6/+1 in the class progression). And you can't make a Full-Attack while using Vital Strike either.

If you are in a position to full-attack an enemy, that will deal more damage than using Vital Strike unless the enemy's AC is making it hard for you to hit with your first attack (if you miss on a 14).
And it can't be used on a charge either, so the only time it should be used is in situations where you could just have chosen to Cleave instead. And if you were already forced to move the least you could do is to make sure you can Cleave.

Then if a friendly spellcaster has cast Haste on you it's never worth considering using Vital strike in place of a Full-Attack, since you're then weighing three attacks (+Hurtful) against just your Vital Strike (+Hurtful).
And as you level up the Vital Strike portion of your damage becomes smaller and smaller, especially if you use weapon properties such as Holy or Bane which wouldn't be multiplied with Vital Strike.

BluePikachu wrote:
How do I actually enlarge myself?

'

1) Friendly Spellcaster
2) Friendly Spellcaster with a Wand of Enlarge Person
3) Potions of Enlarge Person
4) Placing one level in a class with Enlarge Person so that you can use Wands without needing the Use Magic Device skill
5) Placing one level in a class with swift action enlargement

How do I get bane for goblins?


BluePikachu wrote:
Is Cleaving Finish something to consider? Or Orc hewer

Cleaving Finish might be a bit circumstantial unless you're dropping enemies every turn. Orc Hewer is good if you begin to meet a large portion of medium creatures (or large if you're enlarged).

BluePikachu wrote:
How do I get bane for goblins?

You either buy a magic weapon with the Bane (Humanoid: Goblin) property, or you use your Advanced Weapon Training class feature to take the Warrior Spirit option. This allows you to place the Bane property on your weapon when you want, so you can choose Dragons if you fight Dragons or Orcs if you fight Orcs.

It's dependent on your total Weapon Training bonus, so it's generally a better idea to wait until your bonus has become +2 before taking Warrior Spirit. This happens at lv 9 normally, and you'd get this option for free, or if you're a Weapon Master fighter you could take the Advanced Weapon Training feat at lv 7 since they get their +2 bonus then.

Yet again a reason to not take Two-Handed Fighter, as are the Advanced Armor Training options you'd normally get starting at level 7.


Should I take a feat in sunder? or do I not need too? If I understand it correctly without Improved Sunder, I will invoke a AoO

Also can someone explain Overhand Chop? I tried looking it up and there seemed to be arguments on it. I assumed that I added my Strength mod to damage twice instead of 1.5 for a two handed weapon. There were arguments that to double my strength mod (+3 -> +6) then apply the 1.5x making it +9 instead of just +6.

In addition, to overhand chop, if I make multiple swings on one enemy or use Cleave. Do I no longer get that damage on any attack after the first? Then with backswing, I can add the extra damage on all attacks or just after the first and lose overhand chop bonus?


BluePikachu wrote:
Should I take a feat in sunder? or do I not need too? If I understand it correctly without Improved Sunder, I will invoke a AoO

Yes you will provoke an AoO from your target if you don't have Improved Sunder. However, since you're using a reach weapon you'll probably get away with it. You're standing 10 feet away, so even though you provoke, they don't threaten you so they can't attack. Obviously if they have a reach weapon or are large etc you can get hit. It's up to you if you think it'll be worth it.

BluePikachu wrote:
Also can someone explain Overhand Chop? I tried looking it up and there seemed to be arguments on it. I assumed that I added my Strength mod to damage twice instead of 1.5 for a two handed weapon. There were arguments that to double my strength mod (+3 -> +6) then apply the 1.5x making it +9 instead of just +6.

Let's say you have 18 STR, which is a +4 modifier. When you attack, you get 1.5x your STR-mod, so +6 damage. With Overhand Chop you replace 1.5x with 2x, so you'd get +8 damage.

BluePikachu wrote:
In addition, to overhand chop, if I make multiple swings on one enemy or use Cleave. Do I no longer get that damage on any attack after the first?

Correct. You actually ONLY get the bonus when you ONLY make a single attack. So if you Cleave you don't get the bonus on any attacks. If you use a full attack at BAB +6/+1 you don't get the bonus on any attacks (you never get the bonus on AoOs, but they never affect whether other attacks get it).

BluePikachu wrote:
Then with backswing, I can add the extra damage on all attacks or just after the first and lose overhand chop bonus?

You'd add the bonus on every attack after the first, but the first attack doesn't get it. This also doesn't work with Cleave, as you have to make the full-attack action to use it, and Cleave is not a full-attack action.

Looking at that, I'd say the following feats would really help maximize Backswing:

- CLEAVING FINISH. This can proc on a full-attack for backswing or on a single attack to add an extra attack after an Overhand chop.

- HURTFUL (and take CORNUGON SMASH so you can intimidate for free). This can also proc on a full-attack or single attack, and makes Cleaving Finish more likely to Proc (if you get 2 attacks you're more likely to kill someone).

- I was going to say HAMMER THE GAP, but it turns out I misread it. I thought it gave a bonus to attack rolls, but it goves a bonus to damage. If anyone knows of a similar feat that does what I thought this one does that would be great for maximizing Backswing.

EDIT: I just realise I already mentioned Cleaving Finish and Hurtful earlier in this thread. I'll leave it all here because I still think they're good and (hopefully) this post explains why better.
If I start babbling just ignore me, I'm still tired and sick =P


MrCharisma wrote:
Correct. You actually ONLY get the bonus when you ONLY make a single attack. So if you Cleave you don't get the bonus on any attacks. If you use a full attack at BAB +6/+1 you don't get the bonus on any attacks (you never get the bonus on AoOs, but they never affect whether other attacks get it).

To specify this, because Pathfinder doesn't follow the normal english language rules of parantheses, it's only on the standard attack action, or the charge action. If you use an attack action and then use Hurtful, Overhand Chop triggers on the attack action attack even if you fully intended to make more than one attack that turn.

The ability is unclearly written, but in effect, it reads "when a two-handed fighter uses the attack action or the charge action to make a single attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls."

@BluePikachu: Have you read my spoiler in post 12? It should have answered both these questions. "attack action" and "full attack" are game terms, they have very specific meaning. And while we're at it, "strength bonus" is a game term, too, something that whoever made the "+9 argument" ignored.

Fun fact, when using Overhand Chop, you technically apply both 1.5 times your strength bonus to damage rolls, and 2 times your strength bonus to damage rolls. However, the two bonuses don't stack (untyped bonuses from the same source, which is "strength"), and thus you only apply the bigger one.


Lots of good suggestions - here's a good uility pick - 5 levels of armoured hulk barbarian. You gain rage, 2 rage powers, 10 skill points and more class skills (including perception) as well as a better move rate (huge for a dwarf) and you lose 3 feats.

Well worth it.

Grand Lodge

strayshift wrote:

Lots of good suggestions - here's a good uility pick - 5 levels of armoured hulk barbarian. You gain rage, 2 rage powers, 10 skill points and more class skills (including perception) as well as a better move rate (huge for a dwarf) and you lose 3 feats.

Well worth it.

Two-Handed Fighter is more level-dependent than the base class. Backswing is more vital than Armor Training for example, and going Armored Hulk 5 would delay it too much, even if gaining 10 ft. is great. If based on vanilla fighter though, it's a go ahead.

Barbarian multiclassing otherwise would give a better maximum damage and immediate raging powers. The extra number of skill points isn't that critical and there's ways to earn Perception as a class skill though. It's just my point of view, but I think either of the archetypes are better served being solo-classed (forgot to say that Armored Hulk does have level-dependent abilities on top of more raging powers), one level of vanilla barbarian would suffice, with the added benefit that the baseline damage would be better unbuffed.

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