Considering playing a bomber alchemist

[Hammerspace]

I will be playing in a new pathfinder 2 campaign starting at level 1 and I am considering playing an alchemist.

There are a couple of things I am wondering about concerning the alchemist.
But first my analysis of the alchemist

from a mechanical point of view alchemist are effectively casters with a slighly different flavor.
They get int+level reagents per day
So that's 5 reagents at level 1.
So potentially 10 'perpared spells' with advanced alchemy
or 6 advanced alchemy items and 2 quick alchemy uses later
or 5 quick alchemy uses.

Alchemists get their 'cantrip' at level 7 (perpetual infusions)

Alchemists use dex to make their bomb attacks.
So their to hit bonus is 10+ 3dex +2 trained+level+item bonus
level 1 16 dex 3 + trained 2
level 2 17
level 3 19 dex 3 + 1 item + trained 2
level 4 20
level 5 22 dex 4 + 1 item + trained 2
level 6 23
level 7 26 dex 4+ 1 item + expert 4
level 8 27
level 9 28
level 10 29
level 11 31 dex 4+ 2 item + expert 4
level 12 32
level 13 33
level 14 34
level 15 36 dex 5+ 2 item + expert 4
level 16 37
level 17 39 dex 5+ 3 item + expert 4
level 18 40
level 19 41
level 20 42

Not quite finished I'll add to this post later

[Vlorax]

Hammerspace wrote:

I will be playing in a new pathfinder 2 campaign starting at level 1 and I am considering playing an alchemist.

There are a couple of things I am wondering about concerning the alchemist.
But first my analysis of the alchemist

from a mechanical point of view alchemist are effectively casters with a slighly different flavor.
They get int+level reagents per day
So that's 5 reagents at level 1.
So potentially 10 'perpared spells' with advanced alchemy
or 6 advanced alchemy items and 2 quick alchemy uses later
or 5 quick alchemy uses.

Alchemists get their 'cantrip' at level 7 (perpetual infusions)

Alchemists use dex to make their bomb attacks.
So their to hit bonus is 10+ 3dex +2 trained+level+item bonus
level 1 16 dex 3 + trained 2
level 2 17
level 3 19 dex 3 + 1 item + trained 2
level 4 20
level 5 22 dex 4 + 1 item + trained 2
level 6 23
level 7 26 dex 4+ 1 item + expert 4
level 8 27
level 9 28
level 10 29
level 11 31 dex 4+ 2 item + expert 4
level 12 32
level 13 33
level 14 34
level 15 36 dex 5+ 2 item + expert 4
level 16 37
level 17 39 dex 5+ 3 item + expert 4
level 18 40
level 19 41
level 20 42

Not quite finished I'll add to this post later

why are you adding 10 to their to hit bonus?

At 20 it's 24 + dex + 3 item so 32 with dex 5.

[Hammerspace]

No Idea why I added 10, I guess I shouldn't post stuff when I don't have time to properly do think them through.
Hmm I can't seem to edit my old post.

So their to hit bonus is 3dex +2 trained+level+item bonus
level 1 6 dex 3 + trained 2
level 2 7
level 3 9 dex 3 + 1 item + trained 2
level 4 10
level 5 12 dex 4 + 1 item + trained 2
level 6 13
level 7 16 dex 4+ 1 item + expert 4
level 8 17
level 9 18
level 10 19
level 11 21 dex 4+ 2 item + expert 4
level 12 22
level 13 23
level 14 24
level 15 26 dex 5+ 2 item + expert 4
level 16 27
level 17 29 dex 5+ 3 item + expert 4
level 18 30
level 19 31
level 20 32

[Aricks]

Alchemist goggles help with bombs too. +1 at level 4, for 100gp.

[Watery Soup]

Your analysis isn't going to help much unless you also know how the enemy ACs scale with level or compare it to other classes.

I think it's generally agreed that alchemist damage doesn't scale well relative to enemy ACs or other classes. I've only seen a little bit personally but I more or less agree.

If you're looking for a combat monster, I don't think alchemist bomber is a good choice.

If you're looking for an okay combatant who is full of skills and fits into almost any party (I like this last bit for PFS play because I never know what the party will be like), it's a fine choice. Every once in a while, you get those "a single thunderstone would be epic right now" moments and your alchemist gets to shine.

[Hammerspace]

Aricks wrote:

Alchemist goggles help with bombs too. +1 at level 4, for 100gp.

I'm pretty sure item bonuses don't stack.

and bombs have item bonusses on level 3,11 and 17.
and goggles have item bonuses at 4,11 and 17.
So they won't help with the regular bombs unless you get the goggles before their level or you haven't had the time to get the higher level recipe.
They are good for the perpetual infusions.
The ingnoring lesser cover feauture of the goggles is always nice

[Hammerspace]

Watery Soup wrote:

Your analysis isn't going to help much unless you also know how the enemy ACs scale with level or compare it to other classes.

I think it's generally agreed that alchemist damage doesn't scale well relative to enemy ACs or other classes. I've only seen a little bit personally but I more or less agree.

If you're looking for a combat monster, I don't think alchemist bomber is a good choice.

If you're looking for an okay combatant who is full of skills and fits into almost any party (I like this last bit for PFS play because I never know what the party will be like), it's a fine choice. Every once in a while, you get those "a single thunderstone would be epic right now" moments and your alchemist gets to shine.

I was planning to make a comparing list for the fighting classes to hit and the casters

from what I can tell you start with dex 16 while other classes will likely have an 18 in their to hit ability. other non caster-classes will get their expertise at level 5, while you get it at level 7, and other classes will get their mastery at level 13.
so 1 Point behind in levels 1-4
2 points behind for level 5-6
0 points behind for level 7-9
1 point behind for level 10-11 (other clasess will have their str or dex at 20)
3 points behind for levels 13-14
2 points behind for levels 15-19 (dex 20)
3 point behind at level 20
not counting the fighter who is always 2 points above the rest.

I am not looking for a combat monster. But I like to have a character that can give a usefull contribution to the group.

Things I am slightly worried about: no cantrips until level 7
So how limited are reagents as a resource?
I have no idea how long combats will last or how many combats per day is usual.
SO what should be my combat action when I run out of bombs?
Pick up a weapon/ multiclass wizard at level 2 for cantrips?

How usefull are bombs compared to what my party members can do.
WHat other kind of alchemical items can be usefull for the party.(smoke sticks, poisons)
Should I give poisons to my allies or poison their weapons before combat.(since their to hit will most likely be better then mine)

[Matsu Kurisu]

Have been playing in Plaguestone with a Bomber in my party.
Your concerns are very valid
Because the alchemist has no equivalent to cantrips, our alchemist has always run out of resources before the boss fights, so you need something you can do on lead up combats not using bombs for minor combats
The bomb damage does not get any stat boost to damage so it is way below normal combat effectiveness.
The alchemist bombs special effects generally only apply on critical hits, so all the bombs tend to do is a little damage.
Our alchemist has not used any of the other smoke sticks etc so don’t know how effective they are.
I have to rate the alchemist as borderline ineffective and you have a real risk of not contributing effectively
If you played Alchemists in first edition you need to forget everything you know and play with a very open mind
Good luck!

[Hammerspace]

Matsu Kurisu wrote:

Have been playing in Plaguestone with a Bomber in my party.

Your concerns are very valid
Because the alchemist has no equivalent to cantrips, our alchemist has always run out of resources before the boss fights, so you need something you can do on lead up combats not using bombs for minor combats
The bomb damage does not get any stat boost to damage so it is way below normal combat effectiveness.
The alchemist bombs special effects generally only apply on critical hits, so all the bombs tend to do is a little damage.
Our alchemist has not used any of the other smoke sticks etc so don’t know how effective they are.
I have to rate the alchemist as borderline ineffective and you have a real risk of not contributing effectively
If you played Alchemists in first edition you need to forget everything you know and play with a very open mind
Good luck!

I think the rules claim that splash damage is to make up for not doing any stat damage. Being able to do some damage even on a miss and to the area of the target.

there are the calculated splash and the expanded splash feats.
that change splash damage to int/ increase splash damage by int.
but those feats kinda feel like a feat tax for alchemists. if you want to use bombs you're kinda forced to take them
And at level 7 you get perpetual infusions. Combined with alchemist goggles for to hit and the debilitating bomb feat they might make decent cantrips. ANd you still have to survive level 1-6.

But how many combat rounds are there in an average adventure day?
btw can you just throw bombs at a specific floor tile to do just splash damage (and is that effective enough?)(or the deafening effect of a thunderstone.

I think frost vial and acid flask are likely to be my choices for perputual infusions.

[Matsu Kurisu]

The rules might claim that, but game play shows its WAY under the power curve and our alchemists experience has been that she is not able to effectively contribute in most combats (... when we play by PF2 rules)
The only time she really felt an effective combat contributor was early on when she mistakenly added her int bonus to the splash damage (and core target).. then she was a beast
The base HP curve has been increased so 1pt of damage per target for an action and a limited resource is negligible
At the time the Alchemist gets the stat to damage Hps of targets are so high it is pretty meaningless
Also Acid bombs are not great at all as round 1 they only do 1 pt splash, the 1d6 persistent only kicks in in round 2 onwards... against most opponents the rest of the party destroys the target before you get more than about 2 rounds of persistent damage
Yes, persistent damage is a beast, And our party HATES being on the receiving end of it, but the bombs are just under powered.
Out of combat the Alchemist can be a real contributor, but in combat...........

Anyway hope you are having a great thanksgiving and enjoy playing your character:-)

[Matsu Kurisu]

Sorry, I don’t feel qualified to answer your rules questions

[krazmuze]

Matsu Kurisu wrote:

Because the alchemist has no equivalent to cantrips, our alchemist has always run out of resources before the boss fights

In plaguestone I found the loot from NPCs and their rooms did a good job of supplying the alchemist, as otherwise making permanent items with downtime crafting only adds four items in four or more days. Not having a low level cantrip is a problem. I could see Age of Ashes being harder for an alchemist.

[Watery Soup]

I have never run out of bombs overall in a PFS scenario (4 hours / 3 combats), but I often run out of one type of bomb.

You get Level+Int reagents, so if you reserve one for Quick Alchemy, you should have 9 bombs/day at Level 1, which is more than a PF1 alchemist with 20 Int got (3+Int).

The difference is that you can use 3/round in PF2. I think people are making a huge strategic mistake by making more than one Strike in a round. Because you're using a consumable, the -5 and -10 Strikes are total wastes.

You'll need to find something useful to do with your "extra" turns. I built my alchemist thinking I could use Battle Medicine to be a healer, but I made some mistakes so I don't know how that's going to work out yet. Being able to craft utility items at higher levels will probably allow an alchemist to do some battlefield control. The list is thin right now, but items usually get added faster than class options so I think this aspect of the alchemist will improve. You can also take a wizard dedication and get some offensive cantrips at level 2 if you really can't stand it.

What is clear is that there's no way an alchemist can match the DPR of a Strike-Strike-Striking martial. If that makes the alchemist "ineffective," I agree you shouldn't play the alchemist - or any of the other 3-5 classes that also can't keep up.

[SuperBidi]

Hammerspace wrote:

I am not looking for a combat monster. But I like to have a character that can give a usefull contribution to the group.

In my opinion, you should not focus on bombs. Whatever your specialization, you have access to all the type of items. Bombs are nice at some very specific levels (level 3 for example), but not incredible at other levels, even with all the bomb feats.

To properly play an Alchemist, you need to use all the items, in my opinion. Taking an Alchemical Familiar will allow you to use Elixirs in one action (the Familiar takes the 2 actions to retrieve it and use it). Poisons are in general as good as bombs, even if you have all the bomb feats, they must not be underestimated.
And you need an at-will ability. Cantrips is the easiest one. Waiting for perpetual bombs are level 7 is... a long way to get there.