Is any roll requested by an action with the Attack trait automatically considered an Attack roll?
The issue is whether Escape (which has the Attack trait) has rolls affected by multiple attack penalty, or merely contributes to the multiple attack penalty for any attempts to Strike the foe after the Escape action.
I can see the argument that it can be treated as an attack, but page 278 and page 298 give precise definitions of and formulae for "attack rolls"; and the wording of escape does specifically describe it as "a check using your unarmed attack modifier", not "an unarmed attack roll".
Multiple Attack Penalty p.446 wrote: The second time you use an attack action during your turn, you take a –5 penalty to your attack roll. The third time you attack, and on any subsequent attacks, you take a –10 penalty to your attack roll. Every check that has the attack trait counts toward your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others. Any action that has the attack trait both increases, and is affected by, the MAP
That's sort of assuming the wording confusion that I was referring to.
Quote: The second time you use an attack action during your turn, you take a -5 penalty to your attack roll. This assumes that the attack action has an attack roll. Strike explicitly says "make an attack roll", but Escape does not describe the roll made as an attack roll.
Quote: Every check that has the attack trait counts towards your multiple attack penalty This states that it counts towards the penalty, but not that it suffers the penalty. This makes it clear that Escaping will affect Strikes later in the round, but not that Escaping itself suffers from MAP.
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This ground has been covered:
Attack Rolls p.446 wrote: When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll. Attack rolls take a variety of forms and are often highly variable based on the weapon you are using for the attack, but there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls. If it has the attack trait, the roll you make is an attack roll, even if it's an (in the case of Escape) an Athletics or Acrobatics check.
Huh, interestingly this means that things like Sanctified Ground (+1 to attack rolls, but not skill checks) affects Athletics checks to trip, but not those to climb, correct?
EDIT: And true strike affects trip/disarm attempts...
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Consider also that skill checks benefits from Assurance, which also removes map.
In this edition, virtually every d20 roll is a "check", including attack rolls and saving throws (pg 443).
It's a big difference from first edition, and takes some getting used to.
So yes, anything that affects your "attack rolls" affects your "checks with the attack trait".
HumbleGamer wrote: Consider also that skill checks benefits from Assurance, which also removes map.
Interesting note here, Assurance removes MAP from that roll, but doesn't prevent MAP from accumulating. I assume this is what you meant, but figured I'd offer the clarification.
tivadar27 wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Consider also that skill checks benefits from Assurance, which also removes map.
Interesting note here, Assurance removes MAP from that roll, but doesn't prevent MAP from accumulating. I assume this is what you meant, but figured I'd offer the clarification. Yeah, Thanks for explaining it better.
My intent was to say that as last action, even with map -10, an Assurance check to perform an athletic maneuver would be full power.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Well, "full power" for an assurance check. Which is generally pretty far below a noral attempt.
HammerJack wrote: Well, "full power" for an assurance check. Which is generally pretty far below a noral attempt. Full power because with this specific system, if you can succeed a check on a target, you will always succeed it.
Even if it could be strange to give no room for rng in terms of trip vs stability, to say one.
Hmm. This seems a little awkward because what type of attack rolls are these? Are they made with a carried weapon or are they considered unarmed?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The weapon is used for strikes with the weapon. The weapon is used for other rolls that it has a specific property to allow it to affect, like the disarm or trip properties.
For attack trait rolls that don't have a property lime that in play, Escape, neither your weapon or your unarmed strike is relevant in any way.
So the attack roll made for Escape is neither made with a weapon, nor made unarmed?
You're making an Acrobatics check. It has the Attack Trait.
If you were affected by a spell that granted "+1 on all dexterity-based checks", and another spell that granted "+1 on all attack rolls", you'd get +2 on your Acrobatics check to Escape.
hyphz wrote: So the attack roll made for Escape is neither made with a weapon, nor made unarmed?
"Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect."
It is an unarmed attack sort of, but
"You can attempt an Acrobatics or Athletics check instead of using your attack modifier if you choose (but this action still has the attack trait)."
Pg 471.
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