So I put this question up on the 1e forum, and I thought I might as well bring it up here. This isn't a question of optimization as cool builds and thematic character creation.
So how would you build a cleric of Erastil who focus on archery. Obviously, this lends itself to Warpriest doctrine.
I'm also interested in non-cleric builds that fill the same role. Champion, ranger, bard maybe? Devotions are particularly interesting to me.
Definitely interested in stuff grounded in Golarion lore. Also interested if anyone has played anything similiar. Again not so interested in heavy optimization, but in my experience casters in 2e have been pretty tepid so some degree of thought to whether it'll be useful is warranted. (not the point of the question, please save it for another thread).
Also healbot is really not the focus here.
If your focus is on archery, you shouldn't be a full caster.
At best your first arrow will be equivalent to the second arrow of a dedicated martial (accounting both for attack & damage). Archery's not a bad option to have in one's quiver, so to speak, but you'll find you have to set it aside for spells when the going gets tough. I'm not saying don't bother, especially since Cleric Cantrips have limited application, but beware heavy investment for limited return. You don't get the multiplicative force of having high Weapon Specialization coupled w/ high proficiency alongside a warrior class's bonus ability.
That said, such a build is pretty straightforward: Max Dex and the Cleric weapon feats (when there isn't another good Cleric feat around). I'd lean Align Armament (though that's after 7 levels...so um, yeah.)
The bonuses are minor, so look for ones that might trigger a monster's Weakness or are simply efficient.
I might dip Fighter for Point Blank Shot, though unsure since the first feat's not giving much and hopefully I can move 30'+ away and I doubt I'd have that 14 Str at low levels.
I wouldn't dip Ranger since you can't pick up Hunter's Edge. Hunted Shot tempts, but that second attack is like a third attack for a martial, a.k.a. of questionable value, therefore not worth a feat (plus the entry feat).
Thematically, again w/ archery as the focus, I'd go perhaps Erastil Champion or a warrior w/ MCD Cleric.
Champion: They can choose Dex, get plenty of focus spell options to pretend to be a Cleric, and can also add alignment damage w/ Smite Evil. Their spell proficiency naturally increases so you could pick up Divine focus spells from other sources too (like MCD Cleric, Druid, or Divine Sorcerer, w/o needing to take the spell chain for proficiency).
If a Half-Elf, you could dip one, then dip another at 9th w/o meeting prerequisites.
Fighter & Ranger have the best archer feats, though I'd lean Fighter.
You'd have enough extra feats to go MCD Cleric (or even Druid given Erastil's nature aspect) for some Cantrips and focus spells (though choose non-offensive ones unless you take the whole chain.)
I prefer focus spells since you get to cast with each recovery lull, effectively giving you far more slots than other sources of non-Cantrip spells.
Essentially you have to choose whether you want to be a caster who dabbles in archery or an archer that dabbles in casting. PF2's too balanced to let a PC be master of both (alongside peers who only master one).
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Unknown Adventurer NG. Cleric 1
Perception +6;
Languages Common, Elven
Skills Acrobatics +6, Athletics +5, Lore: Farming +3, Medicine +6, Nature +6, Religion +6, Survival +6
Str +2, Dex +3, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +3, Cha +1 Items Hide, Wooden Shield (Hardness 3, HP 12, BT 6) AC 18 (+20 with shield raised),
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +8 HP 16
Shield Block Trigger While you have your shield raised, you would take damage from a physical attack. You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness. You and the shield each take any remaining damage, possibly breaking or destroying the shield.
Speed 25 feet
Melee Mace +5 (Shove), Damage 1d6+2 (B)
Ranged Longbow +6 (Deadly d10, Volley 30 ft.), Damage 1d8 (P)
Divine Prepared Spells DC 16, attack +6 1st Magic Weapon, Heal; Cantrips Stabilize, Shield, Light, Disrupt Undead, Know Direction Focus Spells (1 points) Vibrant Thorns Duration 1 minute Your body sprouts a coat of brambly thorns that harm those that strike you and thrive on life magic. Adjacent creatures that hit you with a melee attack, as well as creatures that hit you with unarmed attacks, take 1 piercing damage each time they do. Anytime you cast a positive spell, the damage from your thorns increases to 1d6 until the start of your next turn. Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1, or 1d6 after you cast a positive spell.
Addtional Feats Assurance, Domain Initiate, Skilled Heritage
Addtional Specials Anathema, Deity, Divine Font (Healing Font), Divine Spellcasting, Doctrine (Warpriest), Domain Initiate (Nature), Skilled Heritage (Nature)
5th Level upgrade HERE
If your focus is on archery, you shouldn't be a full caster.
At best your first arrow will be equivalent to the second arrow of a dedicated martial (accounting both for attack & damage). Archery's not a bad option to have in one's quiver, so to speak, but you'll find you have to set it aside for spells when the going gets tough. I'm not saying don't bother, especially since Cleric Cantrips have limited application, but beware heavy investment for limited return. You don't get the multiplicative force of having high Weapon Specialization coupled w/ high proficiency alongside a warrior class's bonus ability.
I don't know where you're getting these figures from.
A warpriest will have 16 dex, so they'll be at a -1 compared to a Ranger with 18 dex. The Warpriest gets Expert weapon proficiency two levels later than the Ranger, so that means they're at most -3 for a couple levels compared to the Ranger, after which they go back to -1. Why would you say they're at a -5 compared to a martial?
Furthermore, why would archery and spells be mutually exclusive? It takes two actions to cast a spell, and one to fire a bow. That bow shot seems like an excellent use of your third action to me. You can even take a Ranger Dedication to pick up the excellent Hunted Shot feat, letting you cast a spell and fire two shots on your Hunted prey. That's some pretty great action economy, even if the weapon attacks aren't the strongest.
The exact build in my second post lmao. I just am not super familiar with magic items in 2E yet so didn't pick any of that but by 4th you Can have hunted Shot so Round 1 you hunt prey and cast magic weapon. Round 2 Cast bless or shield or nature domain focus spell and than hunted shot.
With the right tactics and party this would make a great support and at each 5 levels make sure to pump Cha to keep your healing font decent and keep Dex maxed putting you only -1 Behind a Dex ranger or fighter. Str is a good pump for Athletics and for propulsive damage on a comp bow. But if you wanted to be safer ignore Str and go for con and use light armor since your dex will outpace medium armor by 5th.
If your focus is on archery, you shouldn't be a full caster.
At best your first arrow will be equivalent to the second arrow of a dedicated martial (accounting both for attack & damage). Archery's not a bad option to have in one's quiver, so to speak, but you'll find you have to set it aside for spells when the going gets tough. I'm not saying don't bother, especially since Cleric Cantrips have limited application, but beware heavy investment for limited return. You don't get the multiplicative force of having high Weapon Specialization coupled w/ high proficiency alongside a warrior class's bonus ability.
I don't know where you're getting these figures from.
A warpriest will have 16 dex, so they'll be at a -1 compared to a Ranger with 18 dex. The Warpriest gets Expert weapon proficiency two levels later than the Ranger, so that means they're at most -3 compared to the Ranger. Why would you say they're at a -5 compared to a martial?
Furthermore, why would archery and spells be mutually exclusive? It takes two actions to cast a spell, and one to fire a bow. That seems like an excellent use of your third action to me. You can even take a Ranger Dedication to pick up the excellent Hunted Shot feat, letting you fire two shots and cast a spell, after you've spent one turn setting up Hunt Prey and attacking the strongest enemy. That's some pretty great action economy, even if the weapon attacks aren't the strongest.
As I noted, accounting for attack & damage, not just attack.
"At most -3" means the Ranger is doing 50% more damage (against a normal enemy that can be critted). That's before considering either Precision or Flurry plus Weapon Specialization at 7th.In total, I think that puts the Cleric's primary arrow at about the same value of the Ranger's secondary arrow. Funnily enough, a Flurry Ranger's second arrow is at -3, so without that extra damage, the Cleric's first shot is actually worse (though there are feats to break even).
The difference is more distinct w/ a Fighter, where the attack difference is higher (though that proficiency makes the Weapon Specialization difference bigger too).
Of course, we're talking about mid-levels here. At lower levels the difference is less, while at 13th+ it's more severe.
I never stated spells & archery were mutually exclusive. In fact, I said "archery's not a bad option". And yes, it is a great 3rd action after a spell. I just don't see it as worth dipping Ranger for 2 feats to get a second attack on that same action; partly due to it costing an action to Hunt Prey and partly because Cleric's have decent buff feats. For a Druid Archer, I'd have no qualms about dipping, though I'd go w/ Fighter.
And I'd call that dabbling enough that I wouldn't even go Warpriest, since I'd want my spell proficiency at its highest for the hard battles.
It'd delay my Expert Proficiency, but I'd rather have my go-to shtick be at its best. It's hard for any Cleric to make weapons their primary, reliable offense vs. existential threats.
So I put this question up on the 1e forum, and I thought I might as well bring it up here. This isn't a question of optimization as cool builds and thematic character creation.
So how would you build a cleric of Erastil who focus on archery. Obviously, this lends itself to Warpriest doctrine.
I'm also interested in non-cleric builds that fill the same role. Champion, ranger, bard maybe? Devotions are particularly interesting to me.
Definitely interested in stuff grounded in Golarion lore. Also interested if anyone has played anything similiar. Again not so interested in heavy optimization, but in my experience casters in 2e have been pretty tepid so some degree of thought to whether it'll be useful is warranted. (not the point of the question, please save it for another thread).
Also healbot is really not the focus here.
Honestly, I would not do it. You are not interested in heavy optimization, but it's what is required to make the build just "work". Otherwise, you'll end up missing all the time and being a healbot more than an archer.
Rangers and Fighters are excellent when it comes to archery. You can take a Cleric Dedication, and you'll have an archer with a great dedication to Erastil (which is definitely grounded in Golarion lore).The easiest to build would be a Ranger. Take Hunted Shot at level 1, Cleric Dedication at level 2, and then you can continue with whatever Cleric feats you like, like the spellcasting ones. Rangers only need Hunted Shot to shine as archers.
Also, you can buy scrolls and wands for out of combat cleric spells, and keep your limited spell list for combat. That will make nearly a Cleric out of your character, but also a valid archer. And by valid, I mean fun to play, because missing all the time and dealing nearly no damage is nowhere close to fun.
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Warpriests don't get Domain Initiate at 1st level, neither do they get a 1st-level class feat.Unknown Adventurer NG. Cleric 1
Perception +6;
Languages Common, Elven
Skills Acrobatics +6, Athletics +5, Lore: Farming +3, Medicine +6, Nature +6, Religion +6, Survival +6
Str +2, Dex +3, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +3, Cha +1 Items Hide, Wooden Shield (Hardness 3, HP 12, BT 6) AC 18 (+20 with shield raised),
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +8 HP 16
Shield Block Trigger While you have your shield raised, you would take damage from a physical attack. You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness. You and the shield each take any remaining damage, possibly breaking or destroying the shield.
Speed 25 feet
Melee Mace +5 (Shove), Damage 1d6+2 (B)
Ranged Longbow +6 (Deadly d10, Volley 30 ft.), Damage 1d8 (P)
Divine Prepared Spells DC 16, attack +6 1st Magic Weapon, Heal; Cantrips Stabilize, Shield, Light, Disrupt Undead, Know Direction Focus Spells (1 points) Vibrant Thorns Duration 1 minute Your body sprouts a coat of brambly thorns that harm those that strike you and thrive on life magic. Adjacent creatures that hit you with a melee attack, as well as creatures that hit you with unarmed attacks, take 1 piercing damage each time they do. Anytime you cast a positive spell, the damage from your thorns increases to 1d6 until the start of your next turn. Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1, or 1d6 after you cast a positive spell.
Addtional Feats Assurance, Domain Initiate, Skilled Heritage
Addtional Specials Anathema, Deity, Divine Font (Healing Font), Divine Spellcasting, Doctrine (Warpriest), Domain Initiate (Nature), Skilled Heritage (Nature)
Natural Ambition. It didn't list in the statblock for some reason.
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How will you "miss all the time"? What are you basing that on?
Compared to a Fighter (easier to compare than to a Ranger), you have:
-3 to hit at level 1-4-4 at level 5-6
-2 at level 7-9 (the best moment in your carreer!)
-3 at level 10-14
-4 at level 15-19
-5 at level 20
So, you have a very big accuracy difference. Most of the time, your first attack will hit on 10+, second on 15+, and you'll not even hit once per round on average. One third of the round you'll kill flies. It will be hyper frustrating.
Gishes are possible in PF2, but they require a high level of optimization. Without it, they are just plain bad.
A Ranger with a Cleric dedication is an absolutely awful choice. Martial character feats can provide stackable power bonuses that you can benefit from every turn. Caster feats on the other hand provide extra tools in your toolbox, but don't significantly affect your raw power, with a few exceptions at high levels. A caster loses much less than a martial by spending feats on dedications.
For example, a Ranger with a Cleric dedication is going to miss out on feats like Quick Draw, and Disrupt Prey, that give them extra actions and attacks, boosting their action economy each fight, while the cleric feats at those levels do stuff like give a tiny bit of extra healing when they cast a heal spell, or give an extra cantrip slot. Taking a Ranger dedication is an easy proposition for a Cleric, because it's a significant boost to their damage each turn, far above what they could get from two of their own feats.
Seriously? You should really play this build before saying something that wrong. Cleric with Ranger Dedication is a fight uphill. Ranger with Cleric Dedication is easy to build and play.
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Did you also consider heroism on himself Bidi?
Obviously not, as it would make the difference even higher, as you would cast Heroism on the Fighter and not on a character who doesn't use all his actions attacking. Being able to buff doesn't make you a good martial, it makes other characters better martials.
Also, Heroism 1 isn't worth the 2 actions it costs unless you can cast it outside combat.
Also note the Ranger is doing more damage due to Weapon Specialization and has a much better MAP (or bonus precision damage) via Hunter's Edge (which is what makes Hunt Prey worthwhile!). This is all day, no buffs. And they can get Heroism too (or some other source of status bonuses).
I'll say it again:
You can be an archer who dabbles as a Cleric or a Cleric that dabbles as an archer.
Either makes for a fine build, a fun build too, but you can't master both. You can master one and have the other for breadth, i.e. to spend your free actions or to have an emergency Heal. Just be aware that overtaxing yourself may undermine your build so that you master neither.
(This goes for the martial too.)
Oh, and there's no reason to take Fighter off the table. When talking about "PC who focuses on one weapon", the class that focuses on one weapon group is kinda important.
As for why a martial w/ MCD caster is easy to play, it's because the martial classes have their main strengths embedded in their chassis as well as armor proficiency, hit points, and better saves. It's difficult to make a bad martial unless you try.
Then their casting amplifies their strengths, patches their flaws, or gives them breadth with barely an effect on their combat prowess.
Note: I wouldn't build an offense around casting though, since you'll be fighting a similar uphill battle to the caster trying to focus on a martial offense.
As for why a martial w/ MCD caster is easy to play, it's because the martial classes have their main strengths embedded in their chassis
I would not exactly say that. In PF2, all classes have their main strengths embedded in their chassis. And Clerics are healers. So, when the OP says he doesn't want to play a healbot, then I answer don't play a Cleric as Clerics are healers. He says he wants to focus on archery, then play a Ranger or a Fighter.
Trying to make an archer out of a Cleric is as hard as trying to make a healer out of a Fighter.
As for why a martial w/ MCD caster is easy to play, it's because the martial classes have their main strengths embedded in their chassis
I would not exactly say that. In PF2, all classes have their main strengths embedded in their chassis. And Clerics are healers. So, when the OP says he doesn't want to play a healbot, then I answer don't play a Cleric as Clerics are healers. He says he wants to focus on archery, then play a Ranger or a Fighter.
Trying to make an archer out of a Cleric is as hard as trying to make a healer out of a Fighter.
You and I agree here.
If he wants his main role to be archer, he can't start with a Cleric who can only manage it as a secondary role (albeit a fine one as secondary roles go). I would add Champion too, at least for an archer wanting some divine abilities.