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It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?
All in all though, it just sounds like a bad idea. If you don't want the 9 casting level classes around just ban them.
Or just play Starfinder, where the two spellcasting classes are limited to 6th-level spells, and that limitation is baked into the system from the beginning. Spellcasters eventually gain class abilities that allow them to replicate a few higher-level spells, but only on a VERY limited basis.
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It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?They won't have the same spells though. A Wizard will still have Wiz/Sorc spells while a Magus will have Magus spells. Their other class features are also different.
You're right, they won't be exactly the same, but the point still stands. They have the same spells known/per day, but the Magus has a better fort save and BAB. The wizard has some school abilities, but the magus has Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Spellstrike, Spell Recall, etc etc. Essentially the Magus is still going to be a much better option.
SOLUTION: You could reduce the level of spells "known" available to the wizard (in line with the magus), but have spell-slots of a wizard. Thus a 7th level wizard would know up to 3rd level spells but have 4th level spell-slots. These would only be usable with metamagics (or just as bonus 3rd level spell slots if you feel like nerfing yourself).
This would do away with some high level spells, while still goving wizards a lot more spells per day, and encouraging more use of metamagics for variation.
Thoughts?
Eldritch scoundrel rogue or warlock vigilante gets the sorc/wiz list.
Hunter gets the druid list as well as the ranger list, as does fey trickster mesmerist.
Cabalist vigilante gets the witch list; hexcrafter magus can get all curses which is the best part of the witch list.
As noted warpriests get the cleric list.
Unless you really like full wild shape there's not a lot of reason to go for any of those full spellcasters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, there are plenty of other classes in PF which are often more interesting.
Just be a bit careful as a GM with effects which require spells to remove as they require higher character levels/caster levels of items.
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The simplest option is to just ban spells over 6th level and let casters fill slots higher than that with metamagic. Then the wizard gets the spells earlier than the magus and can do more with them by adding metamagic.
I also have an even more complicated suggestion, that was inspired in another similar thread:
1) Full casters cannot learn a spell higher level than 1+(1/3 of their character level).
2) Other casters cannot learn a spell higher than 1+(1/4 their character level).
This houserule nerfs both the wizard and the magus to make pure martials a little more tempting. And since the spell cap is based on character level instead of class level, multiclassing a caster feels more rewarding. The main downside is that it is rather complicated and may confuse some of your players.
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But that would leave some of the classes with levels that don't give them anything new.
You could give a free metamagic feat at the levels where locked out spell tiers would be gained. So for the wizard, a free metamagic feat at level 13, 15 and 17.
And pre-12th level they would still be above other classes in power and versatility.
Not by much. The full casters are actually a little on the weak side until about level 5. And most of the broken spells don't show up till 12+. I guess the problem is that you feel like a wizard's non-casting class features are somehow equivalent to a magus's non-casting class features. Obviously this is not true. The magus has better BAB, hitpoints, saves and then also has more special class features. All the wizard really has going for it is its generally better spells, and sometimes the spells aren't even better. If you take those spells away, then you have gutted the class so bad that there is no point in the wizard even existing as a playable class. You'd be better off just playing a magus who calls himself a wizard.
And I think you may have missed this edit from above, so I'm reposting it below:
I also have an even more complicated suggestion, that was inspired in another similar thread:
1) Full casting classes cannot learn a spell higher level than 1+(1/3 of their character level).
2) Other casting classes cannot learn a spell higher than 1+(1/4 their character level).This houserule nerfs both the wizard and the magus to make pure martials a little more tempting. And since the spell cap is based on character level instead of class level, multiclassing a caster feels more rewarding. The main downside is that it is rather complicated and may confuse some of your players.
Any other ideas? Would those problems become less pronouced if gestalting was allowed?
If you feel full casters are too strong for your games, gestalt may not be the best course of action.
I don't know. Sounds good, but also a bit too complicated for my taste/needs.
That may be because converting every full caster into 6/9 caster is pretty complicated. If your perceived problem is that full casters get spell levels too quickly, just ban them. That's the easy way.
Even MrCharisma's idea only solves one part of the equation, the spell slots. The bigger problem would be spell levels, since all 6/9 and 4/9 casters cheats spell levels for some spells on their list. So if you remove all the Wizard's 7th, 8th, and 9th spells they are unable to ever cast Greater Possession. But the Occultist and the Spiritualist gets this 8th level spell as a 6th level spell, so they would actually gain access to better spells than the full casters would.
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I don't know. Sounds good, but also a bit too complicated for my taste/needs.That may be because converting every full caster into 6/9 caster is pretty complicated. If your perceived problem is that full casters get spell levels too quickly, just ban them. That's the easy way.
Even MrCharisma's idea only solves one part of the equation ...
That was literally the simplest way I could think to do this. I think Wondersell is right, your best bet is to just ban full casters.
Genies and devils can't grant wishes in your world.
In Starfinder, high technology makes up for the weakness of magic.
So can people make tanks that fire meteor storms?
What about cloning tanks?
Oh good, another poster who wants them to lock this topic.
D20 Modern was the dire warning that 4th edition was coming.
I bought the book but wasn't able to use anything in it.
A 6th spell level cutoff requires such sweeping changes on every other rule that you should just use the Spacefinder ruleset. They already did all the work for you.
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I'm inclined to agree if you take away full spell progression from the spellcasting classes you've either got a massive amount of redesign/balancing to make up for it ahead of you or there's no reason to take them over other classes like the magus. I LIKE playing arcane casters and if you presented me with this ruling I'd instantly start looking at other choices probably a magus.
It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?They won't have the same spells though. A Wizard will still have Wiz/Sorc spells while a Magus will have Magus spells.
You should reread the magus class features.
Warlock Vigilante and Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue both get the Wizard list outright.
Neither gets access to magus spells, while the magus gets to cherry pick whatever he wants from the wizard list.
Nobody cares about the 1000 useless or highly situational spells. It's the dozen or so really good spells not already on the magus list that get grabbed.
As others have suggested, just banning full casters would be the easiest solution... however I can understand your concerns with that. The full caster classes do have their own suits of class abilities that arn’t available to others even through archetypes. A Wizards Arcane School is something you can’t get on any partial caster, Sorcerer Bloodlines are only available in limited form to others and only by giving up most of your feats, Wild Shape isn’t on any partial caster... the only full caster you can even come close to replicating through a partial caster is the cleric, and even then it is a cheap imitation, you either go Warpriest for the spell list and a cheap imitation of Domains and Channel Energy or you take Zealot Vigilante for A single Domain and Channel Energy but are restricted to the Inquisitor spell list...
If you want to preserve the classes but restrict spell casting, you could simply ban 7th level spells and higher and grant some extra perks in their place, (potentially a lot of extra work) or have all spells of 7th level and up require approval, thus allowing you to keep the more detrimental spells out of your game. There are a lot of less desirable 7th level + spells out there that are quite frankly on par with or weaker than many 3rd-5th level spells.
Warlock Vigilante and Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue both get the Wizard list outright.Neither gets access to magus spells, while the magus gets to cherry pick whatever he wants from the wizard list.
Nobody cares about the 1000 useless or highly situational spells. It's the dozen or so really good spells not already on the magus list that get grabbed.
You know that’s a bad argument... not every magus build can afford to spend an arcana or feat on an extra spell or two from the sorcerer/wizard list. And if your building a Magus just to get access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then you may as well go Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue or Warlock Vigilante instead. The Warlock Vigilante actually gives the closest feel to a traditional full caster in that situation as well, while Magus and Eldritch Scoundrel are both highly focused on arcane Gish style play.
Just gonna point out that the OP hasn't posted since Nov 21, and there was a month long gap between Nov 22 and Dec 26.
Not saying you have to stop, but I wouldn't necessarily be directing your comments at the OP.
There are several problems with this.
The first problem is that higher level spells are the main power of a pure caster. Some of the classes that is about the only thing they get. Clerics for example get very little other than spells at higher level. They gain domain powers at 1st and 8th level, and their channel energy becomes more powerful. Domain powers are usually very weak or extremely limited uses. Channel energy is not that good of ability to begin with, and it benefits the party more than the cleric. Other than spells wizards get school abilities and feats. With the rules you are proposing metamagic feats are really watered down so most wizards will probably pick crafting feats.
The second problem is the spell list themselves. Many 6th level casters get early access to a lot of spells. This is usually not a problem because with the faster progression of the full caster they often get the spells about the same level. Heroism is a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spell, but bards get it at a 2nd level spell. A bard gets access to this spell at 4th level. Under your rules the wizard gets access to it at 5th level, and the sorcerer has to wait until 6th level. Your argument that there is still a reason to play the pure spell caster because they have different spell lists is actually often a reason not to play the pure spell caster. Under your rules if I wanted to play a gnome illusionist I would be better off playing a bard than a sorcerer. I would get my import spell earlier.
And finally you are actually solving anything with this. Sure you have reduced the power of the full caster, but you have not really addressed any balance issues, all you have done is moved the problem around. You may not have full casters throwing around 7th level or higher spells, but you still have the problem of magic being stronger than anything. What you have done is to change the most powerful classes. Now instead of Wizard and other pure casters being the top dog the 6th level casters will take that spot. The pure casters will now be glorified NPC classes and the marital classes will still be just as weak.
A better solution would be to reduce all casters. My initial thought was to reduce 6th level casters to the progression of 4th level casters, and eliminate the spells for the 4th level casters. This would work pretty well for the bard, but for the other classes not so well. What you need to do is to completely rewrite the tables.
You know that’s a bad argument... not every magus build can afford to spend an arcana or feat on an extra spell or two from the sorcerer/wizard list. And if your building a Magus just to get access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, then you may as well go Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue or Warlock Vigilante instead. The Warlock Vigilante actually gives the closest feel to a traditional full caster in that situation as well, while Magus and Eldritch Scoundrel are both highly focused on arcane Gish style play.
1. That is a priority call made by the player. If your goal is to act as a wizard replacement, you build for it.
2. Greater Spell Access
I sympathize with wanting casters to be weaker. I also realize that CR-appropriate challenges, esp. monsters, require full-powered casters to deal with. The way to keep things a bit more balanced is not to nerf all the PCs so that they all die immediately, so if you nerf casters, nerf the monsters and challenges, too -- which means you're playing Iron Heroes or something. Or keep casters full power, massively boost high-level martials, and maybe slow level progression if you don't want things getting too crazy too soon.