All full casters use 6th level spellcasting progression


Homebrew and House Rules


Basically what it says in the title.
Wizard and Witch use Magus casting.
Cleric, Druid and Shaman use Warpriest casting.
Sorcerer and Oracle use Bard casting.
Etc. (Caster monsters are also included.)
I mostly need suggestions on how to deal with class features that give spells of 7th and above level (Domains, Bloodlines, Mysteries, etc.), preferably in an easy and quick way.
I'm also interested in opinions on how will this houserule impact the power/versatility/effectiveness of those classes.


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It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?


Restoration will be a 10th level spell? So you aren't going to use anything that drains stats before CR 11?

Metamagic feats will be impacted. Either you can avoid paying the cost, or you just can't afford to use them.

All magic items that produce spell effects will be in higher demand.

As for the spells above 7th level...if you don't have an ability that lets you prepare or cast a spell of 7+, it doesn't matter if it is on your list or not. You really should introduce circumstances that let characters cast the 7-9th level spells. Some kind of ritual set up probably.

All in all though, it just sounds like a bad idea. If you don't want the 9 casting level classes around just ban them.


Meirril wrote:
All in all though, it just sounds like a bad idea. If you don't want the 9 casting level classes around just ban them.

Or just play Starfinder, where the two spellcasting classes are limited to 6th-level spells, and that limitation is baked into the system from the beginning. Spellcasters eventually gain class abilities that allow them to replicate a few higher-level spells, but only on a VERY limited basis.


MrCharisma wrote:
It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?

They won't have the same spells though. A Wizard will still have Wiz/Sorc spells while a Magus will have Magus spells. Their other class features are also different.

Meirril wrote:
If you don't want the 9 casting level classes around just ban them.

First, that's a waste of good material.

Second, I don't have any problem with the classes, just with the full progression of spells.


Warpriest has “cleric list, but capped at 6th”. With amazing class features.

Magus also has better saves, more HP, BAB, martial weapon proficiency, can cast in armor. All before you get to the big class feature advantages they have over wizards. There’s also some spells on the Magis list wizards don’t get, and if there’s something a Magus wants from the Wizard list, they can just Arcana it.

I don’t know that there’s any need to ban 9th level classes, but I don’t know why anyone would take them.


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Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?
They won't have the same spells though. A Wizard will still have Wiz/Sorc spells while a Magus will have Magus spells. Their other class features are also different.

You're right, they won't be exactly the same, but the point still stands. They have the same spells known/per day, but the Magus has a better fort save and BAB. The wizard has some school abilities, but the magus has Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Spellstrike, Spell Recall, etc etc. Essentially the Magus is still going to be a much better option.

SOLUTION: You could reduce the level of spells "known" available to the wizard (in line with the magus), but have spell-slots of a wizard. Thus a 7th level wizard would know up to 3rd level spells but have 4th level spell-slots. These would only be usable with metamagics (or just as bonus 3rd level spell slots if you feel like nerfing yourself).

This would do away with some high level spells, while still goving wizards a lot more spells per day, and encouraging more use of metamagics for variation.

Thoughts?


Eldritch scoundrel rogue or warlock vigilante gets the sorc/wiz list.
Hunter gets the druid list as well as the ranger list, as does fey trickster mesmerist.
Cabalist vigilante gets the witch list; hexcrafter magus can get all curses which is the best part of the witch list.
As noted warpriests get the cleric list.

Unless you really like full wild shape there's not a lot of reason to go for any of those full spellcasters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, there are plenty of other classes in PF which are often more interesting.

Just be a bit careful as a GM with effects which require spells to remove as they require higher character levels/caster levels of items.


MrCharisma wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
It would make the 9th level casters just bad versions of their 6th level counter-parts. A Magus is basically just a wizard with more class features and less spells. If they have the same spells then why pick a wizard?
They won't have the same spells though. A Wizard will still have Wiz/Sorc spells while a Magus will have Magus spells. Their other class features are also different.

You're right, they won't be exactly the same, but the point still stands. They have the same spells known/per day, but the Magus has a better fort save and BAB. The wizard has some school abilities, but the magus has Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Spellstrike, Spell Recall, etc etc. Essentially the Magus is still going to be a much better option.

SOLUTION: You could reduce the level of spells "known" available to the wizard (in line with the magus), but have spell-slots of a wizard. Thus a 7th level wizard would know up to 3rd level spells but have 4th level spell-slots. These would only be usable with metamagics (or just as bonus 3rd level spell slots if you feel like nerfing yourself).

This would do away with some high level spells, while still goving wizards a lot more spells per day, and encouraging more use of metamagics for variation.

Thoughts?

I don't know. Sounds good, but also a bit too complicated for my taste/needs.

Any other ideas? Would those problems become less pronouced if gestalting was allowed?


The simplest option is to just ban spells over 6th level and let casters fill slots higher than that with metamagic. Then the wizard gets the spells earlier than the magus and can do more with them by adding metamagic.

I also have an even more complicated suggestion, that was inspired in another similar thread:
1) Full casters cannot learn a spell higher level than 1+(1/3 of their character level).
2) Other casters cannot learn a spell higher than 1+(1/4 their character level).

This houserule nerfs both the wizard and the magus to make pure martials a little more tempting. And since the spell cap is based on character level instead of class level, multiclassing a caster feels more rewarding. The main downside is that it is rather complicated and may confuse some of your players.


Melkiador wrote:

The simplest option is to just ban spells over 6th level and let casters fill slots higher than that with metamagic. Then the wizard gets the spells earlier than the magus and can do more with them by adding metamagic.

But that would leave some of the classes with levels that don't give them anything new.

And pre-12th level they would still be above other classes in power and versatility.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
But that would leave some of the classes with levels that don't give them anything new.

You could give a free metamagic feat at the levels where locked out spell tiers would be gained. So for the wizard, a free metamagic feat at level 13, 15 and 17.

Quote:
And pre-12th level they would still be above other classes in power and versatility.

Not by much. The full casters are actually a little on the weak side until about level 5. And most of the broken spells don't show up till 12+. I guess the problem is that you feel like a wizard's non-casting class features are somehow equivalent to a magus's non-casting class features. Obviously this is not true. The magus has better BAB, hitpoints, saves and then also has more special class features. All the wizard really has going for it is its generally better spells, and sometimes the spells aren't even better. If you take those spells away, then you have gutted the class so bad that there is no point in the wizard even existing as a playable class. You'd be better off just playing a magus who calls himself a wizard.

And I think you may have missed this edit from above, so I'm reposting it below:

Quote:

I also have an even more complicated suggestion, that was inspired in another similar thread:

1) Full casting classes cannot learn a spell higher level than 1+(1/3 of their character level).
2) Other casting classes cannot learn a spell higher than 1+(1/4 their character level).

This houserule nerfs both the wizard and the magus to make pure martials a little more tempting. And since the spell cap is based on character level instead of class level, multiclassing a caster feels more rewarding. The main downside is that it is rather complicated and may confuse some of your players.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Any other ideas? Would those problems become less pronouced if gestalting was allowed?

If you feel full casters are too strong for your games, gestalt may not be the best course of action.

Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
I don't know. Sounds good, but also a bit too complicated for my taste/needs.

That may be because converting every full caster into 6/9 caster is pretty complicated. If your perceived problem is that full casters get spell levels too quickly, just ban them. That's the easy way.

Even MrCharisma's idea only solves one part of the equation, the spell slots. The bigger problem would be spell levels, since all 6/9 and 4/9 casters cheats spell levels for some spells on their list. So if you remove all the Wizard's 7th, 8th, and 9th spells they are unable to ever cast Greater Possession. But the Occultist and the Spiritualist gets this 8th level spell as a 6th level spell, so they would actually gain access to better spells than the full casters would.


Wonderstell wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
I don't know. Sounds good, but also a bit too complicated for my taste/needs.

That may be because converting every full caster into 6/9 caster is pretty complicated. If your perceived problem is that full casters get spell levels too quickly, just ban them. That's the easy way.

Even MrCharisma's idea only solves one part of the equation ...

That was literally the simplest way I could think to do this. I think Wondersell is right, your best bet is to just ban full casters.


I'm guessing giving full casters limited access to high level spells (through their spell granting class features) won't change your opinions?


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
I'm guessing giving full casters limited access to high level spells (through their spell granting class features) won't change your opinions?

any level of access to higher level spells changes everything,

But more details would be necessary to comment,


There are a few ways this could be done. Using Sorcerer as an example, Bloodline spells:
- become usable as Spell-likes X/day each
- are added as spells known, but you have to use multiple lower level slots to cast them (when you don't yet have access to slots from your class)
- are added as spells known, but you can cast them only using bonus slots from a high ability score(when you don't yet have access to slots from your class)
- are added as lower level spells (with the caveat that they count as lower level only for casting them as this class; so no cheaper crafting or other abuses like that)


How about adding the SLOTS to cast higher level spells, but not the knowledge of those higher level spells until later? So, at level 5, a wizard can still cast an Empowered Magic Missile, but still doesn't have access to Fireball (until a Magus would have 3rd level spells). It would make Metamagic feats a bigger thing for 9th level casters.

I'd even say that maybe they should get Heighten Spell for free (or it just be baked into the whole "you can use a higher level slot for a lower level spell" thing)

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