Coven is terrible (and a replacement for Cackle).

[Decimus Drake]

Realistically, when will a player get use of this ability? It’s 10th level, it can only be used to form a coven with other creatures/witches who also have it, the benefits seem situational at best, only witches in the occult tradition can take it and you still need three hags to gain any granted spells or rituals.

This ability might work for an NCP, but for a player? It’s a waste of a feat and a waste of space.

Maybe it would be salvageable if it wasn’t limited by magic tradition and the witch could form a bond with players who don’t have the Coven ability. But personally it either needs a significant re-work or to be scrapped.

A radical approach could be to replace the Cackle feature with something based on the coven concept, but not the monster ability specifically. Perhaps something that takes inspiration from the Triadic Priest archetype from 1e? The witch forms a bond with a number of allies (or peons); no real idea has to how this would work mechanically but the effects could vary with the choice of spell casting tradition or patron.

Thematically this feels ‘witchy’ without imposing a very specific and annoying RP expectation in the way of Cackle. I think it would also give the witch a stronger, more distinct identity from the first level; this is particularly true if it’s tied in some way to the choice of patron.

[Ediwir]

It's a direct transposition of a PF1 option. I doubt it was ever used much, if not for NPCs, and in PF2 it makes both less sense (because NPCs are built differently) and more sense (because retraining allows for situationality).

At least it's very Macbeth.

[Rysky]

Also it’s a Feat, if the option to use it in the foreseeable future (due to party/ally composition) doesn’t seem to come up, don’t take it.

If you do take it and end up not using it, retrain out of it.

[Midnightoker]

I would kind of like it if they dropped the hag requirement

[Decimus Drake]

Rysky wrote:

Also it’s a Feat, if the option to use it in the foreseeable future (due to party/ally composition) doesn’t seem to come up, don’t take it.

If you do take it and end up not using it, retrain out of it.

You could say that about every feat (or every class) in the play test but that isn't helpful to anyone. The point is to scrutinise the content we're presented with so it can be improved. At this point the feat is a waste of space in the book and as such detrimental to the witch class as a whole.

[Rysky]

Decimus Drake wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Also it’s a Feat, if the option to use it in the foreseeable future (due to party/ally composition) doesn’t seem to come up, don’t take it.

If you do take it and end up not using it, retrain out of it.

You could say that about every feat (or every class) in the play test but that isn't helpful to anyone. The point is to scrutinise the content we're presented with so it can be improved. At this point the feat is a waste of space in the book and as such detrimental to the witch class as a whole.

1) no, see my comments/threads on the Oracle.

2) it’s not detrimental to the class nor a waste of space. It’s thematic, and again a Feat, you don’t have to take it but if the situation comes up that you can take and use it great.

Aka “I don’t like this feat” does not make the feat a waste of space.

[dm4hire]

The coven feature is one of the abilities I would like to see either adjusted, replaced, or perhaps altered.

If adjusted then leave it as the option it is. Just fix it so that it's more usable by everyone.

As for replacement I agree it seems useless and takes up space in the class. Useless class features that will see minimal play need weeded out. Just as feats that 90% will take should just be class features.

My thought on altering it would be to make the coven feature a ritual instead, that keeps it intact and available. A class restriction could be applied to make it available to witches only.

[Decimus Drake]

dm4hire wrote:

My thought on altering it would be to make the coven feature a ritual instead, that keeps it intact and available. A class restriction could be applied to make it available to witches only.

I could definitely see this working. Getting any use out of the Coven class feature is so far into the realm of GM fiat it might as well be a ritual. I'd still open it up to any witch and not just the occult tradition though.

[ChibiNyan]

Book space is at a premium nowadays, having one of these abilities meant only for NPCs or gimmick campaigns that will be used in <5% of games is actually taking up the slot that an actually usable ability could be using up instead.

Plus we already got Prehensile Hair and Nails doing that, Witch feats need some breathing room...

[Rysky]

Decimus Drake wrote:

dm4hire wrote:

My thought on altering it would be to make the coven feature a ritual instead, that keeps it intact and available. A class restriction could be applied to make it available to witches only.

I could definitely see this working. Getting any use out of the Coven class feature is so far into the realm of GM fiat it might as well be a ritual. I'd still open it up to any witch and not just the occult tradition though.

No it isn’t. You just need something marking you as a member of Coven (I’m sure will get we will get Feats that allow other Classes to count with the Witch as the head of the Coven. Though I do agree if the Witch stays multiple Traditions it should be opened up to the others as well).

You don’t have to have Hags in the Coven, they only get you the spells and Rituals. As is you get the sensing abilities of Coven members.

Quote:

Coven members can sense other members' locations and conditions by spending a single action, which has the concentrate trait, and can sense what another coven member is sensing as a two-action activity, which has the concentrate trait as well.

[Rysky]

ChibiNyan wrote:

Book space is at a premium nowadays, having one of these abilities meant only for NPCs or gimmick campaigns that will be used in <5% of games is actually taking up the slot that an actually usable ability could be using up instead.

Plus we already got Prehensile Hair and Nails doing that, Witch feats need some breathing room...

NPCs don’t have Feats so it definitely isn’t meant for them.

[Perpdepog]

Decimus Drake wrote:

dm4hire wrote:

My thought on altering it would be to make the coven feature a ritual instead, that keeps it intact and available. A class restriction could be applied to make it available to witches only.

I could definitely see this working. Getting any use out of the Coven class feature is so far into the realm of GM fiat it might as well be a ritual. I'd still open it up to any witch and not just the occult tradition though.

I second (third?) this becoming a ritual. Coven creation is depicted as a ritualistic affair in literature anyway, well perhaps other than in Disk World where witch covens are mostly formed by inviting your neighbors over for tea.

Making it a ritual also means that the witches have to periodically regroup to do it again, which feels thematic to the concept as well.

Actually while I'm talking on rituals, does anyone else feel like the witch would benefit from a feat which made them better at performing rituals?

[Decimus Drake]

Perpdepog wrote:

I second (third?) this becoming a ritual. Coven creation is depicted as a ritualistic affair in literature anyway, well perhaps other than in Disk World where witch covens are mostly formed by inviting your neighbors over for tea.

Making it a ritual also means that the witches have to periodically regroup to do it again, which feels thematic to the concept as well.

Actually while I'm talking on rituals, does anyone else feel like the witch would benefit from a feat which made them better at performing rituals?

The Coven monster ability is pretty ritualistic in that it requires an 8 hour ceremony performed on prospective coven members.

I can understand an argument being in favour of for a ritual-improving ability for witches I also think an argument could be made for most of the spell casting classes and some of the non-spell casting ones too.

[Ramanujan]

I could see this being used if your patron is the coven.

[MaxAstro]

Coven was definitely intended to be an NPC or evil witch-only ability in 1e; the only reason it wasn't is because items like the Collar of the Unbound Coven eventually got published.

Considering how every single witch I ever had in a game tried to cheat their way into a coven for those ridiculously powerful spell-likes, I certainly don't mind it staying firmly "NPC or evil witch-only" for 2e.

But it is an iconic witch ability, and people would be upset to not see it, so I am in favor of it staying.

[The-Magic-Sword]

I want it to let you pull other party spellcasters into a circle that confers some kind of semi-unique bonus per additional person in the circle, a spellcasting support option.

[Midnightoker]

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

I want it to let you pull other party spellcasters into a circle that confers some kind of semi-unique bonus per additional person in the circle, a spellcasting support option.

Seconded.

When has party cooperation really been an issue?

If you’re not a true witch maybe you receive retribution for participating or something.

If it’s going to exist anywhere outside an NPC Stat block, it should be something a party can realistically do without finding a hag. Even if it was witch only I’d take it, but they’d be missing an opportunity.

Since witch can be multiple spell lists, it’d be neat if they could form a coven with anyone of the same spell list

[Ramanujan]

Or something like this ability:

Form or join a coven with other individuals.

You can cast spells that you know or have a written copy of (such as a scroll) as a ritual without requiring the spell to be on your spell list, using a spell slot or consuming the written copy but with a casting time of six hours per spell level, reduced by an amount of time per member of your coven involved in casting the ritual, based on their skill checks, to a minimum of one hour.

All participants must make a skill check, with the skill depending on what kind of magic at least one participant with this feat or participating hag casts. The DC of the check is equal to 13 + the level of the spell x2.

On a critical success the spell takes two hours to cast less per spell level.
On a success the spell takes an hour less to cast per spell level.
On a failure casting the spell takes an additional hour to cast per level.
On a critical failure the spell takes an additional two hours to cast per level.

Witches with this ability and Hags cannot get a worse result than a success; including you.

The cost of material components is reduced by half per participant who succeeds or critically succeeds, but doubled per participant who critically fail. If you do not have sufficient material components once the skill checks are made, the spell fails and the components are not spent.

If the spell ends up taking more than 12 hours to cast, it automatically fails and the components are not spent.

Nb the details would need tweaking. But the idea is that you can form a coven, it lets you cast rituals with that coven, and hags and witches have a substantial advantage in doing so, but it can be done with others, especially if they have the relevant skills.

[Samurai]

MaxAstro wrote:

Coven was definitely intended to be an NPC or evil witch-only ability in 1e; the only reason it wasn't is because items like the Collar of the Unbound Coven eventually got published.

Considering how every single witch I ever had in a game tried to cheat their way into a coven for those ridiculously powerful spell-likes, I certainly don't mind it staying firmly "NPC or evil witch-only" for 2e.

But it is an iconic witch ability, and people would be upset to not see it, so I am in favor of it staying.

I see it as the Witch equivalent of a Wizard's academy. Sure, they could put in a bunch of feats and benefits for belonging to a wizard's academy, and it's very thematic (Hogwarts Discworld, etc) but that is something best left to the players and GM. They can create it if they want, or they can say the wizard left the academy and hasn't looked back. The witch is kind of the same thing. They can make a mention that witches sometimes form covens and get together to help each other with rituals or for comradery.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

I am fine with it existing, but it means witches will release with even less choices in whatever feat slot that is.

It is a very very very niche and GM dependent feat. Absolutely fine to have in the game, probably best as a Lost Omens feat imo.

[Angel Hunter D]

Coven has the same problems as 1e, it's cool and thematic but basically impossible to actually use. Either make it usable or don't taunt us with it.

[Lyz Liddell]

Thanks for these thoughts, folks! This will help us figure out the best way for this feat to exist.