Oracle Multiclass Bard: What Makes a Revelation Spell, or How To Get Screwed By A Cantrip

[Shinigami02]

So this is something that was pointed out by a member of my playtest group: Bard Composition Cantrips. According to Bard's text

Bard, Composition Cantrips, CRB Page 97 wrote:

Composition cantrips are special composition spells that don’t cost Focus Points, so you can use them as often as you like.

Which basically means that like all Composition spells (according to the same page) they are a Focus Spell... just one that you can spam. The thing is, because they're still a Focus Spell, if I'm not mistaken that means that an Oracle who takes any Composition Cantrip via MC Bard will treat them as Revelation Spells. Which, well... let's look at Oracle's Curse

Oracle, Oracular Curse, Playtest Page 15 wrote:

The first time after your daily preparations that you complete the Cast a Spell activity for a revelation spell, your minor curse manifests... If you cast a revelation spell while your minor curse is in effect, you progress to the moderate curse effect immediately after you finish Casting the Spell.

Note there's nothing in there about the Revelation Spell has to be one that would normally cost Focus, just that casting a Revelation Spell advances your curse. Does this mean that a level 8+ Oracle MC Bard who attempted to use Inspire Courage the way it seems to be intended to be used (every round give or take) is going to fly through their Curse? A strict reading seems to say yes.

So what do you all think? Does this seem an accurate reading? Does it seem like definite oversight of two unrelated mechanics interacting in a way they were never meant to interact? Am I grossly misinterpreting a mechanic? What say ye.

[Bandw2]

Shinigami02 wrote:

So this is something that was pointed out by a member of my playtest group: Bard Composition Cantrips. According to Bard's text

Bard, Composition Cantrips, CRB Page 97 wrote:

Composition cantrips are special composition spells that don’t cost Focus Points, so you can use them as often as you like.

Which basically means that like all Composition spells (according to the same page) they are a Focus Spell... just one that you can spam. The thing is, because they're still a Focus Spell, if I'm not mistaken that means that an Oracle who takes any Composition Cantrip via MC Bard will treat them as Revelation Spells. Which, well... let's look at Oracle's Curse

Oracle, Oracular Curse, Playtest Page 15 wrote:

The first time after your daily preparations that you complete the Cast a Spell activity for a revelation spell, your minor curse manifests... If you cast a revelation spell while your minor curse is in effect, you progress to the moderate curse effect immediately after you finish Casting the Spell.

Note there's nothing in there about the Revelation Spell has to be one that would normally cost Focus, just that casting a Revelation Spell advances your curse. Does this mean that a level 8+ Oracle MC Bard who attempted to use Inspire Courage the way it seems to be intended to be used (every round give or take) is going to fly through their Curse? A strict reading seems to say yes.

So what do you all think? Does this seem an accurate reading? Does it seem like definite oversight of two unrelated mechanics interacting in a way they were never meant to interact? Am I grossly misinterpreting a mechanic? What say ye.

mixed with some people missing that you can get focus spells to work with curses altogether, i think they should probably add a line or something that a focus spell learned from other sources increments the curse by the number of focus points it would normally use.

this way it also works for future focus spells which could potentially use more than 1 focus point.

[ikarinokami]

I asked this question on the playtest stream, it was answered. all other focus spells from other classes become revelation spells when gained as an oracle. KI spells become revelations spells etc.

[Mechagamera]

If oracles have problems (curses) from mixing divine power from different places together, it seems like divine + occult (which in the literature is often a source of cursed power) seems like a recipe for certain doom.

[Temperans]

And this is a great example of the type of stuff mentioned as a concern about the current version. Every 0 cost focus spell (balanced around many uses) is functionally useless to the current Oracle (can only cast it 2 times before going unconcious).

[Lyz Liddell]

That's a thing we'll take a look at!

[Samurai]

Lyz Liddell wrote:

That's a thing we'll take a look at!

I hope you will release a version 2.0 of the playtest before you finalize the APG, because many people are having many major issues with several of the class ideas, especially the Oracle and Witch, but also, to a lesser extent, the Investigator and Swashbuckler. I don't know of any exact deadline like a big convention, that the book must be released for, so I hope we'll be able to take the time to get most of the issues ironed out for most people before adding these classes in printed form.

[Mathmuse]

Samurai wrote:

Lyz Liddell wrote:

That's a thing we'll take a look at!

I hope you will release a version 2.0 of the playtest before you finalize the APG, because many people are having many major issues with several of the class ideas, especially the Oracle and Witch, but also, to a lesser extent, the Investigator and Swashbuckler. I don't know of any exact deadline like a big convention, that the book must be released for, so I hope we'll be able to take the time to get most of the issues ironed out for most people before adding these classes in printed form.

Fortunately, Paizo's good work on creating Pathfinder 2nd Edition with just a single public playtest proves that they can manage without a second public playtest. They can playtest changes in house, or they could arrange a quick private playtest with local players. The advantages of a public playtest are not as strong the second time around. A second playtest would be the same effort for less reward.

For example, a strong advanage of the public playtest is that Paizo learns the customers' feelings about the proposed designs. The changes, such as redesigning the curse-based system for casting revelation spells, will affect only a fraction of the class's design, so the playtesters will have less to say about them.

[Lyz Liddell]

It's also the case that we still have the data from the overall playtest last year that will guide us in balance decisions once we nail down the specific concept designs. Those concepts are where we need your feedback the most (and we've been hearing you!) but to a large degree the next steps are just implementation.

To make a totally ridiculous comparison, it's like saying "we're gonna make a dessert" and then the playtest is trying to figure out whether y'all want chocolate or lemon flavors, cake or pie or mousse, and rich vs. sweet. Once we figure that out, we know how much flour and eggs to use because we've done that part before.

To the question of schedule, though, the Advanced Player's Guide will be coming out at Gen Con 2020 (July 30, to be precise). So we do have a publishing schedule we need to meet, but we have time to incorporate what we're hearing now into the final versions of the class.