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Probably not. There are a number of effects that have variable power based on initiative order. It seems like an intentional design choice.
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You are debuffing them for your allies, not yourself.
So yes, it's a bad feat for a solo boss.
But a great feat for the Thieves Guild enforcer w/ a crew of Rogues, perhaps w/ bows.
I get that. I'm saying that even when you're helping your allies, it can still end up doing nothing if your turn is next.You are debuffing them for your allies, not yourself.
So yes, it's a bad feat for a solo boss.
But a great feat for the Thieves Guild enforcer w/ a crew of Rogues, perhaps w/ bows.
Fair enough, though this would be a decent reason to Delay.
If focusing on one opponent, wait until before they go (technically until the person before that enemy ends their turn) so that the effects from your Reactions last through all your allies' turns.
It gets complicated with more enemies, especially since you typically don't want to Delay through an enemy's turn, but that's part of strategy & tactics, right?
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Side effect of the metagame constructs known as rounds and turns. Some wonkiness crops up.It only crops up if you don't design effects so that they're guaranteed to last one round.
The wonkiness is still there though, since “round” is an indeterminate amount of time that depends on how many creatures are in the encounter.
Side effect of the metagame constructs known as rounds and turns. Some wonkiness crops up.
Kinda, it's also a side effect of the way PF2 handles effects. Instead of things lasting 'one round' like many things did in PF1 they tend to end on specific turns, which can lead to oddness like this.
It's also relevant for stuff like conditions that tick down, because if an enemy goes right after me, Frightened 1 gives him a debuff for one turn, while if I go right after the enemy, Intimidate will penalize him on all of my allies' turns as well.
It looks like Aggressive Block is specifically designed so the PC who does it can't benefit from it on their turn. There were similar effects (like Bit of Luck) in P1e. The difference is that you couldn't generally apply debuffs not on your initiative in P1e, so they could say it lasts "one round" instead of "until the start of your next turn."
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A round is not indeterminate. Page 13 says a round is 6 seconds.The wonkiness is still there though, since “round” is an indeterminate amount of time that depends on how many creatures are in the encounter.Side effect of the metagame constructs known as rounds and turns. Some wonkiness crops up.It only crops up if you don't design effects so that they're guaranteed to last one round.
And yet you can have two people do 3 actions in a round or 13 doing 3 actions, depending on how many people are in the encounter.
Thus indeterminate.
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I get that. I'm saying that even when you're helping your allies, it can still end up doing nothing if your turn is next.You are debuffing them for your allies, not yourself.
So yes, it's a bad feat for a solo boss.
But a great feat for the Thieves Guild enforcer w/ a crew of Rogues, perhaps w/ bows.
Paizo thought of this:
When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action.
Which is probably a good thing, since if they didn't have this rule then you could potentially keep a debuff going forever by just delaying your turn every round.
I really don't see why consistency is such a boogeyman here. Aggressive Block is almost always going to occur on the enemy creature's turn, it should go away at the start of their next turn.
I think Delay can work for this, although it's maybe not 100% clear and could use a FAQ at least:
When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action. Any beneficial effects that would end at any point during your turn also end. The GM might determine that other effects end when you Delay as well. Essentially, you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn.
Technically Delay doesn't negate that your turn started on it's normal Init, but it's clear that effects whose duration is tied to your Turn can expire on either your original Init or the new Delayed Init. The rationale for expiring on your original Init seems tied to positive/negative effects VS yourself, if I am accurately intuiting the implied context of "Essentialy... you can't avoid..." explanation, and how persistent damage works (on turn of person suffering it). IMHO that text could use an explicit statement of that, so effects outside yourself (like FF vs enemy in this case) that are tied to beginning of your turn/actions would generally be Delayed with your Init.
There is probably some unrealistic exploits with this (e.g. you get Paralyzed/Restrained yet just keep Delaying and inexplicably extending FF) [EDIT: although that's reasonably prevented by not allowing these effects to be Delayed 1 full Round], but I think not allowing it generally is just as bad or worse.
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Side effect of the metagame constructs known as rounds and turns. Some wonkiness crops up.I have no idea what argument you're trying to make. Are you saying that time passes slower when people sit on their asses?
Try running a baton relay in game mechanics? With 3 people? With 10 people? With 100 people?
How far can they run in one round? All with same speed per "6 second" round technically.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, the exact opposite: Only those who insist on hard correlation of game rule conceits with laws of physics must invoke "time dilation" to sustain consistency of their paradigm. Without hard correlation of game rule conceits and laws of physics, claiming "map=world/reality", there is no problem to resolve, just a X "distance" relay race that happens to be represented as resolving in Y abstract game round(s). Describing typical game concepts in spacetime terms can be helpful in general for visualization, but needn't be understood as 100% consistent, concrete fact for all cases/perspectives, if it leads to absurd results. Game mechanics ultimately are terms within abstract game and nothing else.
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Situation a) there’s no one between you and the opponent you just made flat footed.
Situation b) there’s 3 people, and therefore 9 actions between you and the opponent you just made flat footed.
Situation b is longer do to more actions being played out. You’re getting kind of hung up on the literal “time” and not the actions/play time.
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What you just described has nothing to do with the duration of a round.Situation a) there’s no one between you and the opponent you just made flat footed.
Situation b) there’s 3 people, and therefore 9 actions between you and the opponent you just made flat footed.
Situation b is longer do to more actions being played out. You’re getting kind of hung up on the literal “time” and not the actions/play time.
it very much does.
It just has nothing to do with the literal time duration of the round.
Think of it as wither your allies are in position to react to the block/debuff rather then how long the debuff last for.
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Ah, okies, then to reiterate, the inconsistencies would still remain even if they were set to “until Your/their next turn” depending on what all characters go inbetween you inflicting it on them.If you set it to "until their next turn", all characters would have a turn before the effect expired.
But the inconsistencies would still be there, just flipped. And they wouldn’t if the Block was from an AoO from them (or can you not block those?)
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Blocks triggered from an AoO from the enemy are a niche case.But the inconsistencies would still be there, just flipped. And they wouldn’t if the Block was from an AoO from them (or can you not block those?)Ah, okies, then to reiterate, the inconsistencies would still remain even if they were set to “until Your/their next turn” depending on what all characters go inbetween you inflicting it on them.If you set it to "until their next turn", all characters would have a turn before the effect expired.
But still the inconsistencies would remain.
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The world's not perfect.But still the inconsistencies would remain.Blocks triggered from an AoO from the enemy are a niche case.But the inconsistencies would still be there, just flipped. And they wouldn’t if the Block was from an AoO from them (or can you not block those?)Ah, okies, then to reiterate, the inconsistencies would still remain even if they were set to “until Your/their next turn” depending on what all characters go inbetween you inflicting it on them.If you set it to "until their next turn", all characters would have a turn before the effect expired.
Isn't that Risky's whole point? That as rounds are an abstraction they cause wonkyness? So....you're agreeing that this is ok as the world isn't perfect? If not, what is the point you just tried to make?
my group rerolls initiative before each round. Keeps battle feeling dynamic. That's why I like the "everything ticks down on your turn" rule. It helps to avoid weird questions of when something ends.
On topic, this could create a situation where the enemy is flat footed for everyone of your allies to attack it twice.
I.e. WoNkYnEsS!