At long last, our ragtag band has made it through the field of stars and across the lonesome moors. They have bested fell beasts with might, wit and luck and have walked through the gates of horn and bone to stand before the Queen of Fae herself.
They need to find a way to convince this timeless, otherworldly being of her advisor's manipulations, lest the Mortal lands be washed in faerie magic.
This is it. The last big scene where everything will be won or lost. I need it to be sweeping, strange, frightening and vital. So it definitely can't be boiled down to a single Diplomacy roll. Here's what I've got so far:
The character's progress will be a sliding scale of 1 to 10. A 1 means Oona has decided against them and they have lost. A 10 means she believes them and they have won. They will start somewhere between a 4 and a 6, depending on previous elements.
Players will be able to use Diplomacy to influence Oona, increasing their position on the scale by 1.
Puck will use Bluff to decrease their position on the scale by 1.
Puck may take penalties to Bluff to move the PC's down the scale by more than 1, but failure will result in their position increasing instead.
Players will use Sense Motive to reveal Puck's falsehoods, negating their last decrease, and Intimidate to levy a penalty to his next Bluff check or possibly make him forfeit his next attempt.
On top of that stuff, Oona's reactions to certain things will affect the party. Her displeasure freezes the blood (cold damage), her scorn burns (fire), flattery makes her preen (causing confusion or stunning, maybe?), her questions and counter-arguments corrode the self (Charisma drain), her laughter gives birth to piksies, imps and flowers with hungry mouths, etc.
What do you think? Is there a simpler way to achieve a similar feel? What would make such an encounter more memorable or engaging for you?
A series of opposed rolls as the party and Puck each try to make their argument to the queen. Have any hard evidence the players bring forth give an auto success. Though make sure Puck has a comeback for any such evidence. Set it up Ace Attorney style.
As with remaining HP being unknown, I suggest you make the success criterion unknown. If the PCs know they just need one more success to win, they may metagame.
Other than that, it sounds great.
As a father of Puffin Rock fans, I suggest you make Oona puffin-like.
Have any hard evidence the players bring forth give an auto success. Though make sure Puck has a comeback for any such evidence.
The alchemist in the group derives her power from a tincture of distilled madness, and has suggested giving it to Oona in the hopes that driving a mad creature mad again will possibly make them sane for a while, which seemed like just the sort of fairytale logic a story like this would use. I'd probably say such a move would net them an automatic success, plus give a bonus to further Diplomacy.
As with remaining HP being unknown, I suggest you make the success criterion unknown. If the PCs know they just need one more success to win, they may metagame.
Other than that, it sounds great.
You know, I'm not actually too worried about metagaming in most cases. I'll share things like AC and DC up-front, sometimes even HP. I've found it helps a game run smoother.
But in cases like this, I don't think I'll even tell the players about the scale at all. Just that they can use Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and similar skills to argue their side of things, and that I'll be "keeping score".One of the hardest parts for them will be having meaningful communication with Oona at all; she is a completely alien entity, strange and utterly inhuman. But she will have recognizably human traits (pride, envy, gratitude, etc.), even if traditional logic and reason are not among them.
And thank you. I've really been wracking my brain to come up with unique, memorable encounters in this one.
Now I just need to find a way to represent some base statistics thay capture these entities as old as the bones of the earth, but still somehow make them vulnerable enough for the players to defeat them. I'm going to lean heavily on the idea that pride and insanity making for less than invulnerable foes.
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There's a skill challenge in book 4 of Ironfang Invasion, where the party must convince the dwarves of Kraggodan to aid them. It might give you some ideas:
Story time! The story the PCs tell the tribunal is divided into four sections: the fall of Phaendar, rescuing the Chernasardo Rangers, defending Longshadow, and finally the events that directly led to the PCs’ arrival in Kraggodan.
Each of the four retellings is divided into three checks—conveniently matching the beginning, middle, and end of the adventure—which can be explained with a variety of skill checks. A PC can attempt a check using Appraise (presenting a trophy from the tale), Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal (pushing an animal companion or a familiar to reenact events), Intimidate, Knowledge (varies), Perform (varies), Sense Motive, or Spellcraft (presenting an acquired magical item); however, the dwarves of the Evenhanded Synod are quickly bored by a single style of story, and each time the PCs use the same skill for a subsequent check, the DC increases by 5. The DC also increases by 5 if the same PC attempts more than one check in a row, as the tribunal wishes to hear from as many of the heroes as possible. PCs can perform the aid another action to enhance a companion’s story, and powerful roleplaying should be rewarded with an appropriate bonus ranging from +2 to +5. Any PC who speaks Dwarven gains a +2 circumstance bonus on skill checks in this event.
In addition, each of the tales has specific bonuses associated with it, as detailed below. A PC can get an idea for what skills may provide bonuses or penalties in each tale with a successful DC 20 Sense Motive check to read the social situation.
So, let's begin! The first check should involve telling the story about the doomed defense of Phaendar and your escape into the Fangwood.
You can read about our play-through of this episode in our online play-by-post campaign here (I play Wulfram in this game).
I don't know. I've had a strong dislike of skill challenges since early on, and awarding bonuses for what most people call "role-playing" is an absolute no.
Can they provide her with gifts? Suitably weird gifts, of course, that they'll have to have quested for. And she'll do something weirder with them. Naturally, Puck will have misled them about what she might like...
Can they provide her with gifts? Suitably weird gifts, of course...
I was considering the idea that Oona would expect gifts. Three, as is appropriate for such a fairytale.
But no, the characters haven't been searching for anything in particular. They'd have to come up with something on the fly. But as to what would impress Oona, who knows? I think it'll just be down to how an item is presented. I'd probably allow non-tangibles too; all the memories of a first love, one's passion for dancing, skill at cards--they'd all make fine gifts for such a queen.
I think what you want to achieve is a big ask. Having the final encounter basically be just skill checks is likely to feel pretty anticlimactic unless you have a lot more skill at this sort of thing then I personally do.
What I think I would do is set up the discussion with the Fairy Queen as the penultimate encounter, and this is one of the places where I would resort to GM trickery, hiding the fact the win or lose the result would be the same.
For example:
"You have convinced me of the worthiness of your cause and so I will allow you to enter the Shadow Arena, there to prove by combat the justness of your claims"
or
"False creatures, it is clear you are trying to deceive and have no honor. To the Shadow Arena with you, where your falseness will be proven by combat for all to see."
Then you can set up an epic final battle where every PC can showcase their abilities and contribute fully.
I think what you want to achieve is a big ask. Having the final encounter basically be just skill checks is likely to feel pretty anticlimactic unless you have a lot more skill at this sort of thing then I personally do.
Yeah, I'm not really worried about whether or not a concept will work or if I can pull it off. I know I can do that much. It's just a matter of how, to what extent, and how much effort it will cost me.
I can kind of see what you're saying, but rolling that d20, knowing that victory or defeat hinges upon the result--that's tension. Whether it's an attack roll or a saving throw or a Sleight of Hand check doesn't matter.
Combat is a part of my games and is absolutely the most complicated aspect of any session, but it is not the prime objective. I know that, for many groups, Kombat is inherently more satisfying then social interaction, but that's definitely not the case, here.
What I think I would do is set up the discussion with the Fairy Queen as the penultimate encounter...Then you can set up an epic final battle where every PC can showcase their abilities and contribute fully.
Part of my limitation is time. I need to start and wrap up this game within 3 hours or so.
But aside from that...these characters have been seeking an audience with Oona for most of the game. To finally give them their objective and then have it turn out that it's not the end they were told feels kind of anti-climactic itself.With all that said, though, I certainly plan on including combat in this encounter (see above).
You know your game and group best. Good luck.
The doll could look like what you'd expect a fairy queen to look like. The real Oona shouldn't match that appearance.
It's certainly an interesting idea, but we've gone far beyond the "girl in a leaf dress with wings" conception of faeries, back to a more Arthurian or Grimm interpretation. When they told Puck they would go and talk to Oona, he said something like "but you will not be able to bear the weight of her consideration. Her smile will cut you to ribbons. She will crush you like the shadow of the ghost of a gnat..." --they expect a mind-bending, reality-twisting being. She is the first of spring's sun through the last of winter's ice. She is a mountain of blades wrapped in velvet. Her gown is made of living blossoms, fire and the tears of babes. Etc.
You could also roll a d6 after each argument. On a 1 ignore the results and have the Queen's attention drift away.
Are you saying that, along with the above outlined system, I roll a d6 each round and so on?
I think I'm looking at the following base DC's:
Diplomacy to convince Oona: 16-24
Intimidate to distract Puck: 18-26
Puck's Bluff: +15 (or +5 for a double-or-nothing gamit)
The variable for the first two is to allow for different approaches. Using base flattery on Oona will be easier than appealing to her compassion, threatening Puck with violence will be harder than holding his reputation hostage, etc.
I'll let them figure out which approaches are more effective with Knowledge (nature), DC27 for Puck and 32 for Oona.
As it is, a round would go something like:
-Puck tries to Bluff
-Player 1 tries to use Knowledge (nature)
-Player 2 tries to use Diplomacy or Sense Motive
-Player 3 tries to use Intimidate or Aid Another
-Oona reacts
I don't want the scale to just bobble back and forth as they move it up and Puck moves it down, but I also don't want them to fall so far ahead/behind with momentum-like modifiers that they're completely safe/doomed, either. I guess...they'll have to want to end it sooner than later, just to get away from Oona before they're eaten by her dress or go mad looking at her face or whatever, so they'll...try to goad Puck into bigger lies while also gearing up to expose him or trip him up, making progress faster?
I... don't understand. Why overcomplicate Diplomacy?Because:
I need (the final scene of the conflict) to be sweeping, strange, frightening and vital. So it definitely can't be boiled down to a single Diplomacy roll...
But also, because the existing rules for Diplomacy won't work for this scene, or any scene where a hopelessly outclassed underdog figure needs to converse with a higher power in a meaningful way. Your humble farmer (lvl3 commoner) will never be able to sway the wise elfen king (aristocrat 1, wizard 11) in the existing rules, but such things happen in faerie tales. And real life, I guess, but that's less important.
But the sense I get, behind your words... is Oona like unto a goddess before the characters? 1 round of "preening" before the PCs causes them to go temporarily insane, and a single word of scorn makes their blood literally burn inside their veins?
I'm not sure about the meaning behind my words, but yes that's what I said outright.
A common theme I like to play with in faerie tale-esque games is that intangibles become tangible. It's surreal and confusing, and it opens a lot of doors for compelling and creative gameplay.I don't think this should have anything to do with Oona at all, but entirely to do with Puck...Better to reframe this as a direct competition with Puck. You don't have to win over the Queen; you just have to outsmart the jester.
I've thought about that; streamlining the process by removing the "team A tries to influence the judge, team B tries to influence the judge more" thing and just having team A face off against team B. Like how a tug of war isn't two parties trying to influence the rope, it's two parties trying to overcome each other.
The only things stopping me are the elements I need to make a good encounter; multiple options for all the characters, no one's stuck with one option for more than 3 consecutive rounds, the challenge isn't just a "reduce the number to zero" or "don't lose for X rounds" type of thing.
HoW could I structure the scene into something with opposing rolls, versus two teams rolling against set DC's?
Does Oona have any unique features the PCs can exploit?
I'm sure her and Puck have something like frailties. I'm not sure how common such knowledge would be, or how likely it is that the PC's would stumble upon it by chance. I'd assume such potent figures in faerie lore would have pretty extreme taboos/banes. Like...if Oona should find herself in a linden wood upon the winter solstice, she must count every snowflake she can see. Or...Puck is defenseless against a cold-forged knife quenched in the blood of a seventh daughter's seventh daughter, etc.
But yes. This is the kind of thing I need. Maybe a Knowledge (nature) roll could reveal something along these lines that they can use, even if it's fairly minor.
A few simple monsters for them to deal with while they beseech the Queen:
A horde of small figures, their limbs formed from twisted roots, their heads the blooms of flowers or the caps of mushrooms, come rushing toward you, gnashing their oversized teeth.
CN small fae
Initiative +4, low-light vision
AC16, t15, ff12
1hp
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Speed: 20ft.
Bite +6 (1d6-2)
Space 5ft; Reach 5ft.
Str 7, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 4, Wis 9, Cha 11
CMB +4; CMD 11
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Athletics +2, Perception +3
Languages: sylvan
CN tiny fae
Initiative +5, low-light vision
AC19, t18, ff14
1hp
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +3
Speed: fly 50ft. (perfect)
Dart +9 (1 and seed)
Space 2.5ft; Reach 0ft.
Special attacks: seed
Str 5, Dex 21, Con 11, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
CMB +4; CMD 12
Skills: Acrobatics +10, Athletics +3, Perception +6
Languages: sylvan
Seed: a successful dart attack implants a seed into the piksie's target. This seed grows rapidly, causing thorny vines and rose blossoms to sprout from the wound (treat as sickened). Removing all seeds from a target requires a move action and deals 1 point of damage per seed removed.
CN Large fae
Init –1
darkvision 90 ft., Perception +5
AC 14, touch 8, flat-footed 17
hp 30
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +5
Speed 40 ft.
Club +7 (2d8+7)
Rock +1 (1d4+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
CMB 19; CMD 18
Skills: Athletics +11, Acrobatics +5
Languages: Common, Sylvan
On the subject of simple monsters...
Does the Queen have small children? Someone might need to deal with them, or they might a) bite ankles, b) sing in an annoying (and possibly dangerous) way, c) demand the Queen's attention, d) demand that the PCs play hide and seek in the Turning Garden, e) scream.
Does the Queen have small children?
That's exactly the kind of thing I was going for; swarms of strange little things clamoring around Oona, mobbing the PC's, etc.
I'm still playing around with the idea of having mortal children waiting on the Queen, possibly having combatants that the players don't want to outright kill, but I've already done that in a previous encounter....here's a few ways to make Diplomacy relevant:
1. Making sure she's on your side...
2. Spells and Aid Another...
3. Opposed rolls against Puck...
I mean...I know how skills and aiding another work. My point is that reducing the big, climactic confrontation down to a single Diplomacy roll will make it fell flat and boring.
Bluff/Sense Motive/Bluff is pretty much the same thing.What I've outlined is a way to "keep score" and to turn a few skill checks into an actual struggle.
4. Finding weaknesses...
You're right, I think skill challenges are a poorly made mechanic. But what you're describing doesn't really sound like one. It sounds like you're using several skills to gain information for a bonus to another skill (instead of this "as long as you can explain it/accept a cumulative penalty, use your Best Number" type thing I usually see). I implement such things all the time in my sessions.
Also, I've given the players zero hints as to Oona's weaknesses or even who she is, beyond her title. The whole point is that she's unknowable. If she has such weaknesses, she'd surely guard them with all her cunning and might.
What this talk of banes/forbiddences/frailties has me thinking about is how Oona interacts with the PC's and the world around her. She might act strangely, but there can still be patterns within that behavior. I can use the results of player approaches to give them clues as to what will make her react in what ways.
Again, this can either be roleplayed or mechanically resolved...
I am 100% against this. First of all, what most people call "role playing" is in fact acting.
Secondly, it never ceases to baffle me when people decide to throw out an entire rule system whenever characters start talking to each other.Now, I'm not suggesting that every phrase out of a character's mouth needs to be accompanied with some kind of skill check. That's the other Extreme, and it's just as bad. but there are rules in place for these sorts of things, and a social interaction can be just as vital, tents and exciting as a physical combat, if run correctly.
and the rules want to always work as is. I'm constantly coming up with little tweaks and adjustments and secondary mechanics for a given situation. This one being a perfect example. But to set aside all of the dice and the numbers is to set aside the fact that we are playing a game at all, instead of performing some improv exercise.
There are rules for Social Conflicts that might work better...
Those are certainly interesting, but wow. That is a ton of new rules and complete re-writings of existing ones (flat bonuses to skills grant 1/3 their bonus?). I'm sure they work great, but I don't think I want to introduce a whole new subsystem with a couple dozen new game terms at the very last session.
...you don't want to boil the whole thing down to a skill check, nor do you want folks just "acting." So I'd come back to your desire to make this a faerie tale.
How did the miller's daughter escape the deal with Rumplestiltzken?
As I mentioned before, one of the ideas the players have is to drive Oona temporarily sane with the distilled madness one of them has mixed into a tincture. I think that's as "deus ex" as it'll get.
The session has two to three other major scenes in it and needs to be three hours tops. So it's not likely I'll be able to cram in any more content at this point.