So I realized that the rules around this are confusing, namely if you keep the benefits of the buckler if the hand becomes occupied. Looking up "Raise a Shield", you see this:
CRB p.472 wrote: You position your shield to protect yourself. When you have
Raised a Shield, you gain its listed circumstance bonus to AC.
Your shield remains raised until the start of your next turn.
Okay, great, sounds good so far, so let's go look at bucklers:
CRB p.277 wrote: Buckler: This very small shield is a favorite of duelists
and quick, lightly armored warriors. It’s typically made of
steel and strapped to your forearm. You can Raise a Shield
with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or
are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.
Okay, great, we're all set! You can't raise the shield if the hand is occupied, but once you raise it, you're good, you can then grab that Greatsword with a second hand and go to town!
But wait, now let's jump to the top of the section on the description of shields that provides the overview:
CRB p.277" wrote: A buckler, however, doesn’t take up your hand, so you can
Raise a Shield with a buckler if the hand is free (or, at
the GM’s discretion, if it’s holding a simple, lightweight
object that’s not a weapon). You lose the benefits of Raise
a Shield if that hand is no longer free.
Seriously? Please address this. I assume the text at the beginning of the shields chapter is definitive, but why isn't that stated either specifically with bucklers or with the Raise a Shield action? It's possible the intent is otherwise and the rules got left in, but this is pretty bad in terms of organization/trying to look things up.
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Whats the problem? You can't have your cake and eat it. The benefit of the buckler is it is adaptable round to round and doesn't give trouble with, say, opening doors etc.
The rules are pretty easy to find. Even if they are on two different pages, the page for Shields tells you were to go for the Raise a Shield action.
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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Seems pretty clear to me. You can either use a free hand to raise shield with your buckler, OR you can use your free hand to grip a 2-handed weapon and attack with it.
But not both.
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Once I notice the rules I don’t think there’s any confusion, but I don’t understand why that rule that applies specifically to bucklers, was in the section about Raise a Shield, rather than the section about bucklers. I love 2E, but if I have one serious complaint it’s that finding all the rules for a particular mechanic is often a scavenger hunt.
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What @Luke Styer said. I have no problem that the shield doesn't stay raiesed, but *finding* that rule is not easy.
tivadar27 wrote: What @Luke Styer said. I have no problem that the shield doesn't stay raiesed, but *finding* that rule is not easy. It could be better sure, but it is in the first paragraph of the shields section. To miss it you aren't reading through just scanning. I also see it mostly as pointing out a logical conclusion youd get anyway by reading the other two sections.
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This is a thing that happens in at least one other place in the core rules - a rule being in a spot that it makes sense to mention it, but not in the spot it makes the most sense to mention it.
Like how every suit of heavy armor includes padded armor. It's mentioned in the description of padded armor... but it could have been mentioned in the general information about heavy armor and been more likely to be noticed by people that were planning on having a character wear heavy armor.
Malk_Content wrote: I also see it mostly as pointing out a logical conclusion youd get anyway by reading the other two sections. It's far from unheard of for a rule to not be a logical conclusion. This book needed at least one more editing pass.
It's really very simple, just rearrange your order of actions. You get 3 per round.
Action 1: grip your Greatsword with your second hand.
Action 2: Attack
Free action: Release your grip with your shield hand
Action 3: Raise your Buckler
Wash, rinse, repeat next round...
Samurai wrote: It's really very simple, just rearrange your order of actions. You get 3 per round.
Action 1: grip your Greatsword with your second hand.
Action 2: Attack
Free action: Release your grip with your shield hand
Action 3: Raise your Buckler
Wash, rinse, repeat next round...
You managed to find a way to make the Buckler useful... tho I'd be inclined to say that a Greatsword is always 2H, but a Bastard Sword...
Parduss wrote: Samurai wrote: It's really very simple, just rearrange your order of actions. You get 3 per round.
Action 1: grip your Greatsword with your second hand.
Action 2: Attack
Free action: Release your grip with your shield hand
Action 3: Raise your Buckler
Wash, rinse, repeat next round...
You managed to find a way to make the Buckler useful... tho I'd be inclined to say that a Greatsword is always 2H, but a Bastard Sword... This might make bastard swords a thing again, too. One-hand and buckler, or twohand for those big chops. Hmm.
Buckles are useful, without needing any specific weapon.
Let's take drinking a health potion when you really need with sword and shield vs sword and buckler.
SaS: 1a stow weapon or shield, 1a draw potion, 1a drink. Then to be fighting able again another 1a to draw you weapon/shield.
SaB 1a draw potion, 1 a drink. Done
The buckler saves you 2a whenever you want to do something with a free hand. That is perfectly great
Parduss wrote: Samurai wrote: It's really very simple, just rearrange your order of actions. You get 3 per round.
Action 1: grip your Greatsword with your second hand.
Action 2: Attack
Free action: Release your grip with your shield hand
Action 3: Raise your Buckler
Wash, rinse, repeat next round...
You managed to find a way to make the Buckler useful... tho I'd be inclined to say that a Greatsword is always 2H, but a Bastard Sword... You bring up a good point... In my head, I thought when you first draw a weapon that requires 2 hands to use, you first draw it with 1 hand, and then need a second action to add your second hand in order to actually use it. And the same if you needed to drink a potion, release 1 hand, draw the potion, drink it, then regrip with your second hand. But I can't find anything mentioning that. There is the Release action on pg 470, and it says "removed 1 hand from your weapon while continuing to hold it in your other hand", but I can't find anything saying how you draw your weapon if it wasn't drawn when combat begins if it is a weapon that needs 2 hands. Interact says "use your hand or hands to grab an unattended or stored object." Under weapons it talks about Bows having "1+ Hands, meaning you can hold it with 1 hand but need your 2nd hand to draw and fire arrows."
So, if a weapon has the 2 Hands rating, does that mean you MUST always have 2 hands on it? If you want to draw a potion, you need to either stow or drop the weapon first, not just hold it in 1 hand? What about Crossbows, they have 2 Hands, how are you supposed to reload it? Or is Reload considered part of holding the crossbow, there is no need to drop it, grab the bolt, insert the bolt, and pick up the crossbow again. I guess all of that is folded into the Reload action(s).
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Samurai wrote: You bring up a good point... In my head, I thought when you first draw a weapon that requires 2 hands to use, you first draw it with 1 hand, and then need a second action to add your second hand in order to actually use it. And the same if you needed to drink a potion, release 1 hand, draw the potion, drink it, then regrip with your second hand. But I can't find anything mentioning that. There is the Release action on pg 470, and it says "removed 1 hand from your weapon while continuing to hold it in your other hand", but I can't find anything saying how you draw your weapon if it wasn't drawn when combat begins if it is a weapon that needs 2 hands. Interact says "use your hand or hands to grab an unattended or stored object." Under weapons it talks about Bows having "1+ Hands, meaning you can hold it with 1 hand but need your 2nd hand to draw and fire arrows."
So, if a weapon has the 2 Hands rating, does that mean you MUST always have 2 hands on it? If you want to draw a potion, you need to either stow or drop the weapon first, not just hold it in 1 hand? What about Crossbows, they have 2 Hands, how are you supposed to reload it? Or is Reload considered part of holding the crossbow, there is no need to drop it, grab the bolt, insert the bolt, and pick up the crossbow again. I guess all of that is folded into the Reload action(s).
Your first quandry is answered by the table on p. 273, which says "if you retrieve a two-handed item with only one hand, you still need to change your grip before you can wield or use it" but also lists Draw, stow, or pick up an item as taking 1 or 2 hands - so you can, if both hands are free, draw a two-handed weapon with both hands as 1 interact action.
And no, a 2 hands weapon isn't "must always have 2 hands on it."
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