but unfortunately the rulebook is pretty clear:
How is that unfortunate?!
And I'm not sure what exactly rubs OP the wrong way about designer intent:
- Yes, if Kyra heals *herself* (which means she can't also heal another character) - she get's a "free" shuffle of her healing card- which is obviously in line with cards like the (PRESENT IN CORE) Staff of Minor Healing!
- If Kyra heals ANYONE else - she still has her healing card on the bottom of her deck
Is anyone assuming that when designers wrote "recharge to heal local characters" - they DIDN'T anticipate that Kyra would be shuffling the card on self heal ?!? That would always be the result - even by old rules (where it would be worded "recharge a card to allow a character at your location to shuffle a card from their discard pile into their deck"), so I 'm really not seeing the argument how the designers "missed" their intent by somehow not taking into account the "new" rules.
EDIT:
Actually, the "new" rules (about discarded cards not healing themselves) DOESN'T really change anything - it only accounts for the revised Recharge => Recovery mechanics. In "old rules", you would "discard" (but actually "set aside until resolved") a Cure, THEN you would heal 1d4+1 cards from discards, THEN you would attempt the Cure's Recharge check (resolving if it will recharge or be "for reals" discarded).
So bottomline you would never self-heal a Cure by old rules, and the "new rule" has nothing to do with "recharge to heal" cards.
Yes, that means "recharge to heal" cards are a bit more powerful, but I suspect that's a trade-off designer made with both eyes open, in favor of a simpler and more consistent verbiage (and also, when compared with all the other nerfs and "improvements" we got with Core - this doesn't even begin to compensate)
EDIT: I *assume* OP's argument about intent *might* be that if the discarded (higher cost) healing card should be excluded from shuffle - then the recharged (lower cost) card should also be excluded. But this argument doesn't hold water neither from balance perspective, nor when compared with the Curse Staff of Greater Healing - which just *reveals* for its similar effect.
I'm with Longshot here. The rules are very clear that you follow the instructions on a card or power in the sequence they are written. The "you can't heal the card you're discarding to heal with" isn't indicative of a meaningful change - RAI or RAW - to this facet of the rules.
I can't see a meaningful balance concern here either. For one thing, shuffling is not inherently better than recharging.
Obviously, in practice dedicated casters (and some other characters) want to see the cards they recharge sooner rather than later, therefore improving the value of 'shuffling', but that's not an argument that applies in all circumstances.
Well, I played Damiel in Skull & Shackles. Combine his power with two Potions of Healing and you have insane healing machine. He recharged a Potion of Healing AND then could shuffle it back in with the healed cards. Don't you consider that too powerful?
Yes, I do consider that too powerful; but I have several responses to that.
However, it's clearly a designer intent that they want parties to include healing and/or have 'healers' to bring them in line with the RPG, but that does mean that at least one healing spell tends to give you more measurable, serious benefits than a non-healing spell in just about all cases (which my card game sensibilities suggest that means something is unbalanced).
It tells me something that I would advise a pure Arcane caster to start with Cure if one is available and unused, after all. But the power level of healing isn't because of the shuffling component.
What you describe isn't solely powerful because they shuffle themselves back in. Especially since Damiel in S&S is actually so powerful because of Tot Flask, a card that replaces itself with any liquid in your deck (including another Potion of Healing, but also a grenade if you need it) and - once again - shuffles your deck.
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TL;DR: What you have described is really powerful , but the timing of the shuffle relative to the recharge of the healing cards is not the reason it becomes broken. Plus, you've given an anecdote that no longer functions like you describe as of the new Core Rules, which is the topic of discussion now.
The Staff of Minor Healing caused a bit of an argument in my game over the weekend, with me saying that the way the text is written means you shuffle to heal after recharging the staff, while the ACG veteran couldn't believe that that was the intent.
The Staff of Minor Healing caused a bit of an argument in my game over the weekend, with me saying that the way the text is written means you shuffle to heal after recharging the staff, while the ACG veteran couldn't believe that that was the intent.
That surprises me; some older rulebooks even used the old Staff of Minor Healing power (though the card isn't referenced by name) as the literal poster-child of doing things in the sequence they are listed on the card.
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says “Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile,” recharge the card you’re playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.
That rule never changed so a veteran player's historic rule logic should still hold true that you recharge the card and THEN heal yourself.
"really powerful"? "insane combos"?!?
... I realize now that we might be -quite literally- be playing different games :)
As someone who almost exclusively plays 6-player games, my experience is:
- I would *extremely generously* guesstimate that healing actually was of *any* importance in about 10% of our games. Tops.
And I would assume this is *not* an uncommon experience, at least in 6-p, given how designers have endeavored to make the game more and more punishing with every each iteration of the game
- In those games where it actually healing matters - the *only* way to leverage a healing card more than once is to actually shuffle it. In 6-p, you only have 6 hand draws per character, so it's *extremely* unlikely to see a recharged card twice (bar any pretty much at-will-recharge-oriented characters like Adowyn or Zadim). Even with shuffles, a healing card would only see play 2 or 3 times on average, which -split between 6 characters- is a far cry from "insane combo".
My point is, a card or a mechanic may have very different "weight" depending on party size or composition in PACG. Which, granted, is nothing new - but is all the more reason not make any spontaneous changes before considering their impact across all possible modes of play :)
The Staff of Minor Healing caused a bit of an argument in my game over the weekend, with me saying that the way the text is written means you shuffle to heal after recharging the staff, while the ACG veteran couldn't believe that that was the intent.That surprises me; some older rulebooks even used the old Staff of Minor Healing power (though the card isn't referenced by name) as the literal poster-child of doing things in the sequence they are listed on the card.
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says “Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile,” recharge the card you’re playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.That rule never changed so a veteran player's historic rule logic should still hold true that you recharge the card and THEN heal yourself.
He wasn't arguing against what the card said; he thought it was an oversight in the writing.
Without going into any of the other discussion, I can confirm that we knew exactly what we were doing when we had powers recharge cards to heal. It was tested thoroughly and checked on a few times to make sure it was okay.
That said, sometimes giving someone else who really needs a shuffle the heal is still a good call. Staff of Minor Healing feels _great_ (in fact, there are many who played Rise of the Runelords who thought it was the best card ever then, nevermind with the change to healing), but because it takes up a card slot in your deck and hand, it's not nearly as strong in terms of raw effectiveness at making you have a successful turn and scenario as it sometimes feels. Especially for big groups.
That said, sometimes giving someone else who really needs a shuffle the heal is still a good call. Staff of Minor Healing feels _great_ (in fact, there are many who played Rise of the Runelords who thought it was the best card ever then, nevermind with the change to healing), but because it takes up a card slot in your deck and hand, it's not nearly as strong in terms of raw effectiveness at making you have a successful turn and scenario as it sometimes feels. Especially for big groups.
Pre-Core SoMH was indeed considered on our 6-player tables to be one of the most useless cards ever printed .
On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit that POST-Core SoMH is probably among the best entry level items! The added shuffle alone can be priceless in 6-player, where some characters rarely can get a second use out of a recharged powerful card (exacerbated Post-Core by the "one of a kind" card policy), and the ability to knock out two of the annoying Scourges is just icing on the utility cake! Oh, and it now comes with a sexy new "local" area of effect! Way to go from zero to hero in a single revision!
For all the grief it gives me, one thing I *love* about Core is that the amount of "dead" filler cards is now almost non-existent. I fully expect our party to keep SoMH into AD6 even if/when we acquire SoGH as well.
Pre-Core SoMH was indeed considered on our 6-player tables to be one of the most useless cards ever printed.:-D And our different experience with this great game reveals itself again. We considered that card to be one of the most useful items, with Seoni using it quite a lot - it depends on how effective is your character in recharging cards from their hands. :)
From my experience, SoMH is nowhere near as useless as pre-Core Blast Stone or most Basic armors or most RotR potions (without Alchemist) and so on.
Just a question: how many players in your party? We usually play 5 or 6p and in that configuration I tend to support Longshot that this isn't such a useful item (think of it: if you only get 5 turns to play and draw it on turn 3, what good would it do to you? The game will end before you even get to get the card you healed back in you hand.)
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Remember to also compare the balance against taking a single 1d4+1 heal card that you bury or banish. For instance, if you have ~7 turns (4 person group) and manage to use the staff 3 times, then you healed less on average at the cost of 2 draws that could have been something else. If you manage to use it 4 times (non-trivial in RotR), then you healed slightly above average, but at the cost of 3 draws.
That said, in a solo game it has been the absolute star of my deck in several scenarios by letting me perform feats of endurance that would have otherwise killed or conceded the scenario for me.