Lini Pack Lord Clarification

[Rowen2003]

Okay, I’m tired of scouring the Internet to see if I can find someone else who asked this question, so I’m just going to ask it here.

Regarding Lini from the Druid Class Deck, using the Pack Lord role:
Power 1
“For your combat check, you may display an ally that has the Animal Trait to use your survival skill +1d6. If you succeed at the check, recharge the displayed card; otherwise bury it”

Power 2
“If a card that has the animal trait is played on your check, blessings played on that check may add 1d12 instead of the normal die”

Can power 2 be activated from power 1? When the survival skill is determined as the skill being used for the combat check, is the animal trait (and any other traits from that ally) added to the check? If the animal trait is added, then could power 2 could also be used during the check?

The power seems to imply that Lini is using an animal ally to make the attack, and it would use the animal’s traits for the attack.

Paul’s blog post (https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5li9y?Pauls-Best-Character-Ever-L ini) seems to add to that implication that the animal is making the attack, especially when they say, “Once again, she gets to reveal Animal allies for an effect, but in this case she sends them out to attack!“ referring to that power.

[Longshot11]

I can't speak about intent, but playing Lini's power (by displaying an ally) is very definitely NOT playing an ally on the check.

[Frencois]

Both PreCore in MM rules and postCore, its pretty clear :

"Playing a card means using a power on that card by performing an action with that card that is specified by the card itself."

Power 1 is on Lini's card, not on the ally card so you are not playing the ally by using power 1. So power 2 doesn't trigger.

Furthermore, during the check, when you use power 1, the ally is played during the "Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check" step in which clearly "Cards played at this time do not add their traits to the check". So no animal trait added.

I don't see where there could be a debate IMHO.

As Mike would say, forget about the intent, it's all about RAW. Else how could you process the intent when you encounter a Shark in a Church and manage to evade it to encounter a Dragon instead?

[Rowen2003]

Frencois wrote:

Furthermore, during the check, when you use power 1, the ally is played during the "Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check" step in which clearly "Cards played at this time do not add their traits to the check". So no animal trait added.

I see the verbiage “for your combat check” clearly written, and as explained, that is what determines the check.

Core Set Rulebook, page 11, Determine which skill you’re using, paragraph 2, identifies phrases such as “for your combat check” as what determines which skill is being used
Paragraph 6, explains that you add any traits from the card being played to the check.

Frencois wrote:

As Mike would say, forget about the intent, it's all about RAW. Else how could you process the intent when you encounter a Shark in a Church and manage to evade it to encounter a Dragon instead?

I get what you’re saying, and consider that intent is what is used to interpret something that is otherwise unclear to the reader.

[Vic Wertz]

"Power 1" (not the ally) is determining the skill you're using. And you're correct that it is activated during the Determine Which Skill You're Using step.

But you're still not playing the ally: You are not using a power on the ally by performing an action with the ally that is specified by the ally itself. So you don't add traits from it, and it doesn't allow you to use Power 2.

At that point, the traits the check has are Combat (the skill you chose from the list on the card you're encountering), Survival (the skill you're using), Wisdom (referenced by Survival), Female, Gnome, and Druid (your character's traits).

[Yewstance]

When you are using your character power to determine your Combat check, the card you are displaying is not being played for its power, and thus its traits are never referenced.

Furthermore, if you were playing the Animal by using Lini's power, there'd be a variety of other impacts (for example, you couldn't play a second ally on that check because you had already played one).

References (emphasis added)...

Core Rulebook, Page 7 wrote:

Doing something with a card that does not use a power on that card does not count as playing that card. For example, Seelah has a power that allows her to discard an armor to add to a check. Since she’s using a power on her character, it’s being played. Since she’s not using a power on the armor, it isn’t being played.

Core Rulebook, Page 11 wrote:

If you play a card to determine the skill you’re using, that card’s traits are also added to the check; for example, playing the spell Acid Arrow for your combat check adds the Magic, Arcane, Attack, and Acid traits to the check.

Like posters above; I cannot comment on the possible intent of the Pack Lord power, but as-written it will only work if you play an ally on your check in some way - such as discarding an ally that says "add 2d4 to your combat check", etc.

If you wish to houserule differently in a home game, you may feel free to do so, but the RAW are explicit here.

[Frencois]

Sorry I stand corrected, I didn't catch the "for you combat check". I feel bad. Anyway the conclusion was right.

[Rowen2003]

Thanks everyone for clearing this up. It doesn’t feel like the intent closely matches how the rules are written, and as mentioned earlier, house rules can still be in place, and the rules are quite clear about the entire check.

[Vic Wertz]

As far as intent goes, I wouldn't take Paul's comment in the blog ("she sends them out to attack") too literally—he's being flavorful. "She sends them out to help her attack" might be more literal.