1. Are there any viable Monk weapon builds? Seems to me like the only niches they have is disarming and easy access to other damage types. The versatility of weapon switching is cute early on, but as runes come to play, a playstyle that mixes weapons seems very expensive.
2. Is there any reason not to go with a shield + Shield Block, other than aesthetics? Other than Crane Stance builds, Monks don't really have good reaction options for defense like a Rogue's Nimble Dodge. So there's a big incentive to spend bucks on a Steel Shield and a general feat for Shield Block (or Lastwall Sentry Dedication, for that matter), and be able to use reactions defensively at demand.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bo Staff, Stand Still, and Tangled Forest Stance play nicely with each other for a reach tank and gives a good reason not to use a shield. Also tiger monks cannot use shields as they need 2 free hands.
EDIT: Tiger monks only need 2 hands if they take Tiger Slash, if you skip that feat you can still use shields.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So two niche builds, otherwise weapons are a wash and Shields a big plus.
I think this is very hard to patch...
One solution would be adding some side benefit to Monastic Weaponry, like free Quick Draw for Monk weapons.
For Shields... maybe Powerful Fist could grant Parry?
|
For Shields... maybe Powerful Fist could grant Parry?
I like this idea.
Powerful Fist
You know how to wield your fists as deadly weapons. The damage die for your fist changes to 1d6 instead of 1d4, and your unarmed strikes have the parry trait. Most people take a –2 circumstance penalty when making a lethal attack with nonlethal unarmed attacks, because they find it hard to use their fists with deadly force. You don’t take this penalty when making a lethal attack with your fist or any other unarmed attacks.
...
Then, down the line, a new style that grants a Reaction contingent upon using this unarmed Parry to greater effect.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For Shields... maybe Powerful Fist could grant Parry?
Just buy a Main-gauche/Clan Dagger instead: you don't need trained in it to use it to parry so just carry it and don't attack with it.
1. There are viable Monk builds. It's that there are simple builds that are better, so why? (other than flavor or as a backup vs. DR) The Bo Staff as Paradozen mentioned is excellent (and not just for Monks). Or you might have Wild Winds Stance as your main stance, w/ a larger die melee weapon available for close quarters or when caught without a focus point.
Funnily enough, I think Monk weapons are better for MCD Monks that don't want to give up their armor. A Champion flurrying & stunning with a Bo Staff seems pretty cool using it to protect his allies.
One advantage a weapon Monk has is they can move/flurry/move back on round one w/o a stance. Given the longer combats in PF2, that's minor, but it's there.
2. It costs a feat and an action? The Shield Block Reaction is really good so don't get me wrong, but a Monk often can choose to be out of striking range instead. That of course doesn't help your allies much.
Depending on your need for Monk feats vs. General ones, consider getting an MCD in Cleric (for Shield) instead. That can unlock some cool abilities too, like more focus powers (which I'd recommend over spells which take more investment and ramp up slowly). And it comes w/ two skills and lots of flavor.
And Stand Still is a great feat that might already be tying up most of your Reactions, especially if you're often tripping (which you likely should be depending on party composition).
Cheers
How about a ranged build? Shuriken are now martial throwing weapons, rather than ammunition (which would have made them disposable with breaking rules meant for arrows). And the returning property is literally the cheapest magical property around right now (at 55). wording of the property appears to be designed for taking pity for throwing builds.
If I am not misunderstanding something (which is very, very likely), then that seems like a viable side build for your monk.
Sidenote- tiger stance doesn't play nice with shields, but it does have the advantage where it doesn't a weapon for different damage types. It does slashing to give you more options. The only other reason to grab a melee weapon is usually just to get early access to special material weaknesses.
How about a ranged build? Shuriken are now martial throwing weapons, rather than ammunition (which would have made them disposable with breaking rules meant for arrows).
Sadly, you can't use them for any of your monk abilities as they changed the wording of the traits from the playtest. "You can use melee monk weapons with any of your monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks".
Now if you multiclass into ranger, Hunt Prey lets you ignore the second range increment and Hunted Shot gives you back your 'flurry' for the Shuriken. If you want to really go wild, far shot lets you toss that Shuriken 80' without a penalty.
Honestly though, it might be better to be ranger, multiclass into monk and pick up Monastic Weaponry since we've gotten conformation that unarmed goes up with simple weapon proficiency: The main issue is you'd be asking yourself why you aren't using a bow instead.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That is silly. Why did they bother to give the shuriken the monk property? Isn't the definition of that tag "Many monks learn to use these weapons"? Why would a monk bother with them anymore?
...good lord, the optimal ranged set up is a guy with a shield and a handcrossbow, isn't it? This seems like a problem (and unfortunately, their solution will be 'use the ban hammer' rather than 'give monks nice things').
Well, the proficiency for the shuriken does go up with unarmed, Brawling Focus gets you crit specialization effects and Weapon Specialization affects check proficiency. It's not ALL bad: don't get me wrong, it sucks just not 'sucks REALLY bad'.
Honestly, I have NO idea why shuriken got excluded like they did. It just seems odd and I can't think of a reason why.
I get that they might have wanted to avoid allowing some of the weapons from being options for ALL abilities (we can already see the strength of allowing bo use in the tangled forest style)... but the stance feats already present examples of how they can restrict that by just saying "you need to do [insert stance specific attack here]". They could have also just defined the 'monk' property as only working with flurry.
As it stands, the only ranged option they have that separates them from any other class with simple weapons is the wild winds initiate... and that isn't an option until level 8 (and it is also has restrictions on how often it can be used). Even if we had shuriken, the wind style would have still had appeal because it can use your wraps' enhancement bonus (doubling rings don't work for throwing weapons).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also think that the monk with a shield build is more of an exciting fad thing than an “ultimate build” thing. Standing still and raising a shield is fine, but so is taking advantage of the monks mobility to kite like no other, ( we’ll see what the swashbuckler does).
Why a hand crossbow? You still wouldn't be able to reload it with a shield in the other hand. Did you mean a buckler?That is silly. Why did they bother to give the shuriken the monk property? Isn't the definition of that tag "Many monks learn to use these weapons"? Why would a monk bother with them anymore?
...good lord, the optimal ranged set up is a guy with a shield and a handcrossbow, isn't it? This seems like a problem (and unfortunately, their solution will be 'use the ban hammer' rather than 'give monks nice things').
I didn't get that specific, but yes- I was going for hand crossbow under the idea of picking the one that could be used with shield. Given the fact that it is now simple, the other crossbows mostly just have an advantage of better dice.
And if you are a monk resorting to a crossbow... you might as well get a shield so you take less damage while your teammate is handling the situation.
Of course, a monk would actually be better off with a sling. ...still not much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When I played a monk I don't know when I would raise a shield; I always use that extra action to just move away from whatever I was recently trying to hurt.
I mean, the turn usually is:
1) Move, Flurry, Move
2) Flurry, Strike, Move
3) Flurry, Move, Strike.
When I played a monk I don't know when I would raise a shield; I always use that extra action to just move away from whatever I was recently trying to hurt.
I mean, the turn usually is:
1) Move, Flurry, Move
2) Flurry, Strike, Move
3) Flurry, Move, Strike.
From the looks of it, you pull out the shield and hide under it for your turn when you face a flying enemy and you haven't invested in the feats for air options (flying kick, wind initiate).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another note for weapons, Monastic Weapons gets you access to trip weapons faster than Wolf Stance, and works with stances other than Wolf Stance. So if you are planning on using a different stance or need a lot of feats for other things, but you still want to have fun with boosting your trip game, Monastic Weaponry is easier for you. It also means you can get more critical specialization access if any of the alternatives are better than brawling.
And lets you drop to avoid CritFail effect...
|
1. Are there any viable Monk weapon builds? Seems to me like the only niches they have is disarming and easy access to other damage types. The versatility of weapon switching is cute early on, but as runes come to play, a playstyle that mixes weapons seems very expensive.
That's what doubling rings and greater doubling rings are for. Select a primary weapon to actually apply runes to and then just let those copy onto your secondary weapons. The main downside there is that the rings won't help with the bo staff, one of the nicer monk weapons, but there's still some handy options. A sai and temple sword build can hit all three physical damage types; grab Monastic Weaponry, Brawling Focus, Flurry of Maneuvers, and then they have several different viable paths from there to build on depending on whether they want to favor ki powers, mobility, or static benefits (or a combination of the three).
2. Is there any reason not to go with a shield + Shield Block, other than aesthetics? Other than Crane Stance builds, Monks don't really have good reaction options for defense like a Rogue's Nimble Dodge. So there's a big incentive to spend bucks on a Steel Shield and a general feat for Shield Block (or Lastwall Sentry Dedication, for that matter), and be able to use reactions defensively at demand.
Shield Block is a general feat that could be spent on things like Fleet or Toughness. A tankier monk with a parry weapon, any monk with a bo staff, or a monk who uses two different monk weapons like a sai or nunchaku and temple sword won't have a free hand for a shield. Monks are also crazy mobile with very high move speeds, so e.g. an elf monk with Fleet and Deflect Arrows may end up in a way better defensive position if they're not spending an action and reaction on raising and blocking with a shield and instead use that third action to put 60 feet between themselves and their opponent(s). Goblin monks can get a ton of benefit out of Goblin Scuttle and Skittering Scuttle since half their move speed will eventually be the same as everyone else's base move speed (and eventually greater). Monks who want to do a lot of leaping and aerial maneuvers may find that they want to keep their reaction available so they can Grab an Edge and then Rapid Mantel up into a superior elevated position, though that's of course terrain dependent.
Shields aren't bad for monks, but they're hardly the universally best option.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I played a monk I don't know when I would raise a shield; I always use that extra action to just move away from whatever I was recently trying to hurt.
I mean, the turn usually is:
1) Move, Flurry, Move
2) Flurry, Strike, Move
3) Flurry, Move, Strike.1. Moving means the enemy just moves on to squishier party members.
2. The enemy has a reaction.
3. Enemy has a ranged option.
4. Enemy can keep up so all your really costing them is their least accurate attack.
5. Getting distance between you and the enemy is not an option in the environment.Lots of scenarios where increasing AC is better.
Monks do get options to mitigate 2 and 3. Like Deflect Arrows, Guarded Movement, Winding Step, and Ki Rush.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Monks do get options to mitigate 2 and 3. Like Deflect Arrows, Guarded Movement, Winding Step, and Ki Rush.When I played a monk I don't know when I would raise a shield; I always use that extra action to just move away from whatever I was recently trying to hurt.
I mean, the turn usually is:
1) Move, Flurry, Move
2) Flurry, Strike, Move
3) Flurry, Move, Strike.1. Moving means the enemy just moves on to squishier party members.
2. The enemy has a reaction.
3. Enemy has a ranged option.
4. Enemy can keep up so all your really costing them is their least accurate attack.
5. Getting distance between you and the enemy is not an option in the environment.Lots of scenarios where increasing AC is better.
4 is also surprisingly rare with how many movement increases monks get, and 1 is the kind of thing that comes down to party composition. Like, there's no reason you can't use a shield if you don't want to, there's just plenty of reasons you wouldn't, which seemed to be the crux of the OP's question.
2. Is there any reason not to go with a shield + Shield Block, other than aesthetics?
A whole bunch, as has been shown. And shield monks being viable is, IMO, a good thing; greater build diversity is to be lauded, so as long as shields aren't a clear and overwhelmingly superior option to other tactics (and I think enough viable and arguably superior options have been presented that it's safe to say they're not), then that's a net win for the game and players.
monastic weapons can be useful for builds that requires use of weapons...weapon + free hand or 2WF or 2HW
fighters that MC into monk and take monastic weapons+flurry+agile grace+double slice using 2 kama's and wearing fullplate while ki rushing into position and ki striking with those kamas...seems cool
using shurikens gives you str to dmg and is agile...so at shorter ranges works better than longbows for 18 starting str...