Rebalancing encounters with mismatched level from products (minor info on Plaguestone)

[hyphz]

I'm a bit confused about how to rebalance encounters for different numbers of players, especially from standard material.

For example, let's take encounter G2 in Plaguestone, the Foul Den. It is listed as a Severe 2 encounter. The enemies are 2 level 3 Mutant Wolves. Per table 10-8, to a level 2 party a level 3 monster is worth 60 XP, and this matches the XP budget for a Severe encounter at level 2. No problem.

The problem is that the PCs will not actually _be_ level 2 when they reach this encounter. They will be level 1. That means that the wolves are actually 2 levels above them, not 1, and worth 80 XP each. That would make this an Extreme 1 encounter.

Now, I have 6 PCs. The adjustment for a severe level 2 encounter is +30, so for two extra adventurers that would be +60, which is an extra wolf. The adjustment for an extreme level 1 encounter fortunately comes out the same - +40 each, giving +80 for 2 and coming out to an extra wolf.

But the big question now becomes how much XP is awarded for the encounter. Page 508 says that you should "always award the amount of XP listed for a group of four characters". But there is no such list! The XP budget for this encounter is listed, but without regard to level - if it's a level 2 severe, it's 120 XP, but if it's a level 1 extreme, it'll be worth 160. Actually summing the creature values against the PC's actual level would make it worth 240, but that fails to follow the rule that adjustment increases to the XP budget are not awarded. So which level is used to make the award?

Also, this doesn't always work. The previous encounter, G1, is 3 level 2 Bloodlash Bushes. It's again listed as a Severe 2 encounter. To a level 2 party a Bloodlash Bush is even level and worth 40 XP, so 3 of them is 3*40 = 120 which matches a Severe encounter. Cool. But to a level 1 party a Bloodlash Bush is one level above and worth 60, so 3 of them is 3*60 = 180 which is beyond an Extreme 1 encounter. So I would never have been awarding the amount of experience listed on the budget chart anyway. So if I rebalance this, how do I calculate the amount to award?

[Malk_Content]

Here is what I would do. Make one wolf Elite and one wolf Weak. This gives you a Severe encounter for level 1 with 6 PCs. Despite having a larger adjusted budget due to party size, the each only get the 4 party budget of 120.

[Midnight Anarch]

You calculate it based on the XP budget you start with, ignoring adjustments you make based on party size. The starting budget listed in 10-1: Encounter Budget is the value for 4 PCs.

So, if you adjust the budget because of fewer or more PCs, you still award the starting value instead. For example, a party of 6 facing a moderate encounter will begin with an 80XP budget that is increased to 120XP (+20 * 2 additional PCs). Despite the adjustment to the starting budget, you still only award 80XP after the dust settles.

[hyphz]

True, but I'm asking about the case where I didn't budget the encounter, but used one from an existing product which lists the wrong encounter level for the PCs. Do I increase the encounter based on the level listed in the product or the actual level of the PCs?

[Fireflash51]

Based on the level of the party otherwise they're gonna struggle a lot.

[NielsenE]

hyphz wrote:

True, but I'm asking about the case where I didn't budget the encounter, but used one from an existing product which lists the wrong encounter level for the PCs. Do I increase the encounter based on the level listed in the product or the actual level of the PCs?

I think the party should have leveled. Did they skip encounters/rewards?

[NielsenE]

However, as a general rule for when party level doesn't match scenario assumed level:

You have options:
1) Recost/balanced the encounter for Severe 1. This is decided that the 'relative difficulty' of the encounter is what matters for the experience. You're making things 'easier' on the party. If running a module and not using milestone leveling (which plaguestone seems to imply but not call out), I would try to add a story reward/optional encounter to get the group back on the expected pacing ASAP to avoid extra work though.

2) Treat it as Extreme 1, award exp as if it were extreme 1. This should help the party catch up, but up the stakes significantly. This is the 'world doesn't change as the PCs level' option which I can is a matter of extreme concern to some GMs. It can be a major problem for parties that find non-standard ways to solve/avoid combats if the GM doesn't award exp for such things.

[Joana]

NielsenE wrote:

hyphz wrote:

True, but I'm asking about the case where I didn't budget the encounter, but used one from an existing product which lists the wrong encounter level for the PCs. Do I increase the encounter based on the level listed in the product or the actual level of the PCs?

I think the party should have leveled. Did they skip encounters/rewards?

This. According to the XP spreadsheet in the first link, the party should level up after F8.

This is why I prefer milestone leveling, though. If the party inadvertantly bypasses an encounter, it doesn't throw off all the numbers.

[sherlock1701]

Joana wrote:

NielsenE wrote:

hyphz wrote:

True, but I'm asking about the case where I didn't budget the encounter, but used one from an existing product which lists the wrong encounter level for the PCs. Do I increase the encounter based on the level listed in the product or the actual level of the PCs?

I think the party should have leveled. Did they skip encounters/rewards?

This. According to the XP spreadsheet in the first link, the party should level up after F8.

This is why I prefer milestone leveling, though. If the party inadvertantly bypasses an encounter, it doesn't throw off all the numbers.

I've never been a fan of milestone leveling, as it devalues the individual actions a party takes, and prevents having some disparity in level/XP due to character replacement, etc.

NielsenE wrote:

Treat it as Extreme 1, award exp as if it were extreme 1. This should help the party catch up, but up the stakes significantly. This is the 'world doesn't change as the PCs level' option which I can is a matter of extreme concern to some GMs. It can be a major problem for parties that find non-standard ways to solve/avoid combats if the GM doesn't award exp for such things.

This is what I would do, that way they can catch up a bit but their past decisions influence the current situation.

Also remember that listed/planned XP rewards in a scenario don't have to be the only XP that people get - if the players wind up 'creating a challenge' for themselves (maybe they were way more devious than they needed to be to gain access to a city), it's appropriate to reward that (without sharing that there was an easier way, of course).

[NielsenE]

For me, which of option 1 or 2 I'd pick would likely depend on the purpose/lead up to the encounter. If we're heading into a boss encounter/major story encounter that the PCs have a chance to plan for and had some degree of choice over triggering it when they know they're underprepared, then I'd follow my option 2, and let the chips fall where they fall.

If its not an encounter that's a focal point of the story OR if its a 'trap/surprise' by the BBEG, I'd probably take the rebuild as an easier encounter option and work with the party to fit in an extra encounter/side quest/story to help catch back up with the expected leveling.

In the case of the mutant wolves, I'd also want to know how close is the party to leveling? Does the G1 encounter get them to 2? In which case its a moot point. Back to back Extreme 1 (if scaling both G1 and G2 as extreme 1's) seems likely to be a campaign ender. I probably re-work G1 as a Severe 1, and then G2 as an Extreme 1, but I'd have to provide some consumable treasure after G1. In the PCs favor they should be entering G1 reasonably fresh.

[hyphz]

Joana wrote:

NielsenE wrote:

hyphz wrote:

True, but I'm asking about the case where I didn't budget the encounter, but used one from an existing product which lists the wrong encounter level for the PCs. Do I increase the encounter based on the level listed in the product or the actual level of the PCs?

I think the party should have leveled. Did they skip encounters/rewards?

This. According to the XP spreadsheet in the first link, the party should level up after F8.

This is why I prefer milestone leveling, though. If the party inadvertantly bypasses an encounter, it doesn't throw off all the numbers.

I don't see this? So far:

A, 3 wolves -1 (party level-2 = 20 * 3 = 60)
1 caustic wolf 2 (party level+1 = 60 * 1 = 60)
A total 120
E1. PCs did not participate in the bar brawl
B. Bee swarm not encountered as they did not visit the area
E2. PCs did not meet the old man at that time
C 4 bloodseekers -1 (party level-2 = 20 * 4 = 80)
C total 80
D 1 grizzly bear 3 (party level+2 = 80 * 1 = 80)
D total 80

Phinick Chase - listed as a "Severe 1" encounter, but no part of the book gives XP awards for level / severity, only XP budgets. Since there are no actual hazards or creatures listed in the block, this scored no XP (and the PCs didn't chase Phinick anyway)

E 1 boar 2 (party level+1 = 60 * 1 = 60)
E total 60
F2 spear launcher simple hazard 2 (party level+1 = 12 XP)
F2 total 12
F$ falling debris simple hazard 1 (party level = 8 XP)
F4 total 8
F2/F4 special award 30
F5 4 guard dogs -1 (party level-2 = 20 * 4 = 80)
F5 total 80
F6 poisoned lock simple hazard 1 (party level = 8 XP)
F6 total 8
F7 lightning serpent 2 (party level+1 = 60 XP)
F7 total 60
F8 Hallod 3 (party level+2 = 80 XP)
2 spear launchers simple hazard 2 (party level+1 = 12 * 2 = 24 XP)
F8 total 104
F8 special award +80

A 120 + C 80 + D 80 + E 60 + F2 12 + F4 8 + F2/F4 30 + F5 80 + F6 8 + F7 60 + F8 104 + F8 80 = 722.

Well below the 1000 needed to level up. The sheet assumes that the PCs got 240 XP for participating in the bar brawl because there were 12 drunken farmers! Never mind that they would not all have been attacking the PCs, it does not seem at all right that this should be the most valuable encounter in the adventure. But even if they got that they'd only be on 962.

[NielsenE]

E1. Is listed as a moderate 1, so 60 exp. If the PCs did anything to resolve it (helped get the sheriff, tried to calm people down, protected non-combatants, etc) I would still award that exp. If they just sat at the table drinking while a fight raged around them, sure they don't get a story award.

Things you mentioned:
Bees. Sure that's an easy one to miss. I think that's a missed 40.
Skipped the tour, ok, that's another 30 down.

Things you didn't:
Borts Books: missed 30?
Questioning Phinnick to learn about Hallod: 30
F6 Special: 30

You can also spring the sidequests tied to the backgrounds, I'd probably give a 30xp story award on all of them, and one has an encounter to go with it.

[hyphz]

The spreadsheet linked above listed E1 as 240 XP for 12 drunken farmers. As I mentioned before, the encounter budgets are not useful as awards because they fail to account for what happens if, for example, a level 1 party completes a Moderate 2 challenge. Only the individual creature/hazard calculations can give an answer to that.

[Malk_Content]

hyphz wrote:

Phinick Chase - listed as a "Severe 1" encounter, but no part of the book gives XP awards for level / severity, only XP budgets. Since there are no actual hazards or creatures listed in the block, this scored no XP (and the PCs didn't chase Phinick anyway)

An encounters xp reward is the same as its base xp budget.

[NielsenE]

hyphz wrote:

The spreadsheet linked above listed E1 as 240 XP for 12 drunken farmers. As I mentioned before, the encounter budgets are not useful as awards because they fail to account for what happens if, for example, a level 1 party completes a Moderate 2 challenge. Only the individual creature/hazard calculations can give an answer to that.

The spreadsheet is wrong there, IMO. The encounter text says the encounter ends if the PCs subdue/defeat/etc 3 of the drunks. 3 level -1s are a normal moderate, which is why I listed 60 as the goal to award there, either via combat or story awards.