| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will be attempting to do two things.
1. Analyze if there are enough meaningful choices one could make to distinguish their character from another when wild shaped.
2. Point out some unclear information regarding using form spells.
First Subject
When looking at a wild shaping druid I wondered if there were meaningful choices I could make to effect my stats when wild shaped. Here is the data I collected to find my answer. This post does not consider pest form.
1: 6/6/16
2: 7/7/17 | An: 9/9/16+lvl
3; 8/10/18 | An: 14/14/17+lvl
4: 9/11/19
5: 11/13/21
6: 12/14/22 | I: 13/13/18+lvl
7: 13/17/23 | An: 16/16/18+lvl | I: 16/16/18+lvl
8: 14/18/24 | Di: 16/18/18+lvl | Ae: 16/16/18+lvl
9: 15/19/25 | An: 18/20/18+lvl | Di: 18/21/18+lvl | I: 18/20/18+lvl | Ae: 18/20/18+lvl
10: 16/20/26 | E: 18/20/19+lvl | P: 17/19/19+lvl
11: 19/21/27 | Ae: 21/23/21+lvl | E: 23/23/22+lvl | P: 21/22/22+lvl
12: 20/22/28 | Dr: 22/23/18+lvl
13: 21/23/31 | Di: 25/25/21+lvl | E: 25/25/22+lvl
14: 22/24/32
15: 24/28/34 | Dr: 28/28/21+lvl
16: 25/29/35 | M: 28/30/20+lvl
17: 26/30/36 | M: 31/33/22+lvl
18: 27/31/37
19: 28/32/38
20: 29/33/39 | N: 34/36/25+lvl
All form spells state, "If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead," and after it gives your athletics modifier they also state, "unless your own modifier is higher." It is unclear exactly what is meant by 'your modifier'. Does it include all possible bonuses you've added to it from all sources? Does it mean just bonuses from proficiency and ability score? Does it mean only bonuses that could be retained while polymorphed (circumstance & status and if from gear only those that are also a constant effect as opposed to activated)? It is unclear that if you have your modifier boosted from a spell if that will count as your modifier pre-transformation.
Let us assume that 'your modifier' only means proficiency and ability score bonuses and the bonus gained from Wild Shape. Here is when it is better to use the power's attack bonus / athletics or acrobatics bonus.
1: 8/6
2: 9/7 | An: 9/9
3: 10/10 | An: 14/14
4: 11/11
5: 13/13
6: 14/14 | I: 13/13
7: 15/17 | An: 16/16 | I: 16/16
8: 16/18 | Di: 16/18 | Ae: 16/16
9: 17/19 | An: 18/20 | Di: 18/21 | I: 18/20 | Ae: 18/20
10: 18/20 | E: 18/20 | P: 17/19
11: 21/21 | Ae: 21/23 | E: 23/23 | P: 21/22
12: 22/22 | Dr: 22/23
13: 23/23 | Di: 25/25 | E: 25/25
14: 25/24
15: 26/28 | Dr: 28/28
16: 27/29 | M: 28/30
17: 28/30 | M: 31/33
18: 29/31
19: 30/32
20: 31/33 | N: 34/36
Animal [2/9]: 2-5,7,9 / 2-5,9
Insect [6/9]: 7,9 / 9
Dinosaur [8/13]: 9,13 / 8-11,13,14
Aerial [8/11]: never / 9,11,12
Elemental [10/13]: 11,12 / 11-14
Plant [10/11]: never / 11
Dragon [12/15]: 15,16 / 12
Monstrosity [16/17]: 16-19 / 16-19
Nature [20]: always /always
(in brackets is the level you can first use said spell, and the last level it is heightened at)
Let us assume that 'your modifier' means any bonus but not consider temporary bonuses such as from spells. Here is when it is better to use the power's attack bonus / athletics or acrobatics bonus.
1: 9/6
2: 10/7 | An: 9/9
3: 11/10 | An: 14/14
4: 12/12&11
5: 14/14
6: 15/15 | I: 13/13
7: 16/18 | An: 16/16 | I: 16/16
8: 17/19 | Di: 16/18 | Ae: 16/16
9: 19/20 | An: 18/20 | Di: 18/21 | I: 18/20 | Ae: 18/20
10: 20/21&22 | E: 18/20 | P: 17/19
11: 23/23 | Ae: 21/23 | E: 23/23 | P: 21/22
12: 24/24 | Dr: 22/23
13: 25/25 | Di: 25/25 | E: 25/25
14: 26/26
15: 29/30 | Dr: 28/28
16: 31/31&32 | M: 28/30
17: 32/32&33 | M: 31/33
18: 33/34
19: 34/35
20: 35/36 | N: 34/36
Animal [2/9]: 3, 4 / 2-4
Insect [6/9]: never / never
Dinosaur [8/13]: never / never
Aerial [8/11]: never / never
Elemental [10/13]: 11, 13 / never
Plant [10/11]: never / never
Dragon [12/15]: never / never
Monstrosity [16/17]: never / never
Nature [20]: never / never
As you can see with the first assumption there is a good spread of times when it's better to use the spell's modifiers, or your modifiers. With the second assumption there is almost no scenarios where it is better to use the spell modifiers (only two for elemental form, and three for animal form). Based on these results I feel that in the first scenario there isn't enough opportunities to make character choices to make your character any different from other characters when wild shaped; and in the second scenario there are more than enough opportunities to make character choices to make your character different from other characters when wild shaped.
Second Subject
I would also like to address some confusion with how form spells work. When using form spells you gain special statistics. Every form spell has the polymorph trait which details that, "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties...Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can't activate any items."
Handwraps of might blows allow you to use runes and apply them to your unarmed strikes (which the attacks you gain from form spells are considered). Runes are for the most part unclear if they function while you are polymorphed.
Let's start with one that is clear. It is clear that the Weapon Potency rune would not apply to attacks gained from the form spells. This is a constant effect so the gear is allowed to function, but it is a item bonus which is not one of the two types of bonuses allowed to affect your special statics gained from polymorph. However things become more complicated when we look at Striking Runes.
It is not clear whether or not the Striking Rune would apply to attacks gained from the form spells. A Striking Rune increases the number of damage dice (depending on the rune level and how many die the attack has). This is a constant effect so the gear is allowed to function but this effect of increased damage dice is not a typed bonus of any kind so it is not one of the two specified bonus types that can adjust the special statistics given to you by the form spells. If an effect is not a typed bonus of any kind does it still need to go through that bonus type rule? This is a very similar issue with many property runes. Take corrosive for example which add 1d6 acid damage. This is not a typed bonus of any kind, but is it considered adjusting the special statistics?
Consider the energy-resistant rune. This gives you 5 [energy] resistance. This is very similar to the above example, with an added caveat. It is adding a wholly new statistic to your character - resistance. Animal Form (for example) doesn't give you resistance of any kind. Is gaining resistance considered adjusting your special statistics? Is adding considered adjusting?
Moving onto another unclarity. As touched on in the first part of this post, the wording 'your modifier' in the form spells is ambiguous. What exactly does 'your modifier mean? I see three possible interpretations:
1. It includes only bonuses from proficiency and ability scores.
2. It includes only bonuses from proficiency, ability scores, and items.
3. It includes bonuses from all sources including proficiency, ability scores, items, and temporary bonuses such as those from spells.
To help reduce unnecessary discussion I think we can all agree that a bonus from a spell such as Heroism applies to a polymorphed creature's new stats, what is unclear is if you have your pre-transformed modifier boosted from a spell such as heroism if that will count as your modifier pre-transformation.
|
I created a new Druid of the Wild today. One trick I thought of is to use Wild Morph (which you get along with Wild Shape as a Druid of the Wild) to first morph your hands into claws and then cast Wild Fang on yourself. That gives you a +1 Striking Rune effect for 1 minute, giving you a +1 on attack roles and 1 more dice of damage.
I created a new Druid of the Wild today. One trick I thought of is to use Wild Morph (which you get along with Wild Shape as a Druid of the Wild) to first morph your hands into claws and then cast Wild Fang on yourself. That gives you a +1 Striking Rune effect for 1 minute, giving you a +1 on attack roles and 1 more dice of damage.
Do they count as the SAME unarmed attack?
I don't think they do. Like magic fang specifies that
that unarmed attack
gains the bonuses, i.e. an unarmed attack they had when cast upon. Meanwhile animal form for example says:
You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of
which battle form you choose:
...
• One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose
This suggests the unarmed attack, not the creature has the bonus. A bear form's claws are not the same unarmed attack as the wild morph claws.
Yeah, this seems really straightforward. You have an attack bonus, the spell gives you an attack bonus. You can use yours if you like.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, this seems really straightforward. You have an attack bonus, the spell gives you an attack bonus. You can use yours if you like.
It also comes in handy later when you have the option to make a shape last MUCH longer at the cost of it not being as high level as normal. So in those cases you would probably be using your own attack bonuses instead of the ones given to you by the shape.
|
Yeah, this seems really straightforward. You have an attack bonus, the spell gives you an attack bonus. You can use yours if you like.
It's almost as if you didn't actually read the post at all. What about the scenario that he laid out seems straight forward to you? The language used is very ambiguous and depending on how you take the meaning the results are significantly different! This needs an official clarification from Paizo in an errata in my opinion because we could speculate all day long about what it says literally vs what the intentions where but that never got anyone anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.
Many sections of this book use incredibly ambiguous language and seem over complicated because the author of a particular passage took a mental holiday when trying to describe a concept. Further it seems like there are many meaningless options that exist solely for the benefit of cosmetic changes to a character.
I don't mind this because I'm more interested in telling a story than complicated dungeon crawls but it would be appreciated if they made it clear when cosmetic options are being offered instead of meaningful decisions that could cripple or bolster your build.
I felt at first like the ability to retrain feats and options like spell choice were thrown in to make the game more flexible but now I think it was a bandage because Paizo realized you need a way to get rid of useless feats when you realize they are cosmetic only and don't improve your combat abilities.
To bring it back to the topic of the thread I feel like all these options were provided to give the illusion of a meaningful choices but in their excitement to create this illusion they wrote the rules with language so ambiguous as to create the dramatically different outcomes depending on your understanding of the meaning. This is the kind of ambiguity that causes religions to fracture into different sects that go to war with one another!
Until it is cleared up I suggest using the method that gives the druid the least possible advantage over other players despite the fact that this is also the most boring option. Whatever reading results in the lowest over all modifier will stand the least chance of creating an imbalance in your parry.
Failing that you'll need to generate more data with all the other classes to see which reading keeps the druid on the same power curve as the others by level while giving them the most meaningful flexibility. Or just ban the options.
That's just my opinion but I'm obviously much less intelligent than Voss who is able to read through all that data and come away with a clear and simple understanding that can be summed up in two sentences.
|
|
I created a new Druid of the Wild today. One trick I thought of is to use Wild Morph (which you get along with Wild Shape as a Druid of the Wild) to first morph your hands into claws and then cast Wild Fang on yourself. That gives you a +1 Striking Rune effect for 1 minute, giving you a +1 on attack roles and 1 more dice of damage.Do they count as the SAME unarmed attack?
I don't think they do. Like magic fang specifies that
that unarmed attackgains the bonuses, i.e. an unarmed attack they had when cast upon. Meanwhile animal form for example says:
This suggests the unarmed attack, not the creature has the bonus. A bear form's claws are not the same unarmed attack as the wild morph claws.You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of
which battle form you choose:
...
• One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose
Right, 1 attack form. I can't even become a bear yet because I'm 1st level, But if you are in the Wild Order, you get both the Wild Shape feat and the Wild Morph spell. If you got Wild Shape through the Order Explorer feat at 2nd level, you only get the Wild Shape spell and no other benefits of the adopted order. Each of the Orders has 1 inherent bonus beyond the free 1st level feat. Order Explorer only gives you the feat. You would need to wait until 4th level to get the Order Magic feat to get Wild Morph. Wild Morph allows you to alter your regular body in different ways depending upon the shapes you can change into with Wild Shape. The basic one you get just for having Wild Shape, It lets you change your hands into claws. As you get more Wild Shape feats, most give you a new Morph as well (Insect Shape can give you a bite attack, Elemental Shape can give Resistance 5 to critical hits and precision damage, Plant Shape lets you extend your arms as long vines for a 10' reach, and Souring Shape lets you cast it as a 2 Action spell to grow wings out of your own back for a 30' fly speed) I'm not sure whether a wild shaped Druid can still cast spells in the animal form, but you can while you are Morphed because most of your body is still you and it says the Claws can still manipulate objects, just not while attacking. So I'll have to drop my wooden shield when I attack, but it should still be able to do Somatic components.
|
|
I don't mean to be rude Samurai so I apologise in advance if I am infact doing so. I'm wildly autistic so sometimes it is hard for me to tell!
That being said I feel like might have been better off starting your own thread than immediately taking this thread off topic from the jump. Your question is entirely valid and deserves do consideration however it is only tangentially related to the topic (they're both about druid's).
I don't attribute any wanton malice on your part but I hope you can understand how frustrating it might be to go to all the effort of doing this much research only to have the first reply totally derail the conversation while having no response to the content of the thread at all. Imagine if you asked your question in your own thread and then the first reply was another question about the best stat spread for druid's had nothing to do with your question. Then someone else answers their question and next thing you know everyone has started talking about Pokemon and no one has ever replied to you ;).
Obviously that was a bit extreme but I warned you I was autistic from the get go so it's your own fault for reading this far!
|
|
I don't mean to be rude Samurai so I apologise in advance if I am infact doing so. I'm wildly autistic so sometimes it is hard for me to tell!
That being said I feel like might have been better off starting your own thread than immediately taking this thread off topic from the jump. Your question is entirely valid and deserves do consideration however it is only tangentially related to the topic (they're both about druid's).
I don't attribute any wanton malice on your part but I hope you can understand how frustrating it might be to go to all the effort of doing this much research only to have the first reply totally derail the conversation while having no response to the content of the thread at all. Imagine if you asked your question in your own thread and then the first reply was another question about the best stat spread for druid's had nothing to do with your question. Then someone else answers their question and next thing you know everyone has started talking about Pokemon and no one has ever replied to you ;).
Obviously that was a bit extreme but I warned you I was autistic from the get go so it's your own fault for reading this far!
I didn't mean to derail the thread. To answer the OP, I think it means "your character's normal score before he Wild Shaped." So only whatever is normally printed on your sheet (stat. proficiency, permanent magic items, etc.), and bonuses from things like spells and other temporary things would apply on top of which ever normal stat is higher, your own or that listed in the spell/shape.