Converting loot hauls


Conversions


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Does anyone have any ideas about converting loot hauls?

My first instinct is to divide any loot by ten, converting gold pieces to silver pieces. But I suspect it should be reduced even further.

I'm less worried about magic items. I plan to go slow with items anyway.


The wealth by level in PF2 is indeed quite a bit lower than in PF1, even accounting for the gold -> silver change.

I made this table by comparing the 'Lump Sum' column from PF2 character wealth with the PF1 WBL by level. Like PF1's wealth by level, it is based on how much money a character should receive by the time they are the referenced level, so a level 1 party finding 1000 gp in PF1 (the WBL of a 2nd level character) finds 30gp in PF2 (the 'Lump Sum' starting value of a level 2 character).


Wheldrake wrote:

Does anyone have any ideas about converting loot hauls?

My first instinct is to divide any loot by ten, converting gold pieces to silver pieces. But I suspect it should be reduced even further.

Dividing by twenty seems more like it.

That is, change the color from gold to silver and divide the number by two.

10 gold becomes 5 silver.

Quote:
I'm less worried about magic items. I plan to go slow with items anyway.

PF2 essentially tells us "one permanent item per character and level".

I'd simply go with that, and ignore whatever the PF1 module tells you.

Also remember PF2 monsters are seldom lootable to a meaningful extent.

In summary, most loot stashes in a PF1 would disappear entirely.


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Thanks for the suggestions.
Zapp suggests divide by twenty. or 5% of PF1 loot.
FowlJ appears to be suggesting divide by 30 or 3% of PF1 loot.

Somewgere between 3 and 5% sounds about right. I can see my 1st-level players now, teasing out every copper piece...


Wheldrake wrote:
FowlJ appears to be suggesting divide by 30 or 3% of PF1 loot.

I would note that FowlJ is talking about his table, where it starts at 3% but then slowly rises to 22%. It doesn't stay at 3%.

That is why I suggested 5% as something simple, yet relevant

Can't beat the simplicity of taking half the value* :-)
*) and changing the color


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Human adversaries are likely to have useful gear. I can just see my PCs scrounging every last piece of equipment off a fallen foe.

3 to 5% isn't hard either. Drop a zero (to divide by ten) and take a third or a half.

I dunno about other DMs, but when I hand out loot, I tend to give at least half of it in gems, baubles and minor art objects. As a Player I liked getting 10 ivory rods worth 10gp or a silver statuette of a raven worth 25gp. I would often take those items as my share of loot and store them on my character sheet until I needed to spend them.


The big problem with a flat 5% multiplier is that beyond giving way more than normal early on (to the tune of more than double at 3rd level), it also shorts the party dramatically at high levels - it won't be that relevant unless you're converting one of the level 1-20 APs (or converting a 1-17 one to 1-20), but from level 14 onwards they have less than they're supposed to and at level 20 they've made less than 40% of the expected amount.


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So should there be a sliding scale above a certain level? I've been thinking mostly about low-level adventures, since that's what I'll be running for a while.

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Wheldrake wrote:
So should there be a sliding scale above a certain level? I've been thinking mostly about low-level adventures, since that's what I'll be running for a while.

Doesn't Fowlj's link already answer that?


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A somewhat important update: My original calculations for this were done using table 10-10: Character Wealth, which gives the starting money for a character of a given level. The book hadn't actually been released at this point, so I couldn't check the other tables.

I suspected that starting wealth was probably lower than earned wealth, and so I did a new comparison with the 'total value' column of table 10-9: Party Treasure by Level. The difference is quite dramatic. So, those numbers probably reflect the actual conversion more accurately.

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FowlJ wrote:

A somewhat important update: My original calculations for this were done using table 10-10: Character Wealth, which gives the starting money for a character of a given level. The book hadn't actually been released at this point, so I couldn't check the other tables.

I suspected that starting wealth was probably lower than earned wealth, and so I did a new comparison with the 'total value' column of table 10-9: Party Treasure by Level. The difference is quite dramatic. So, those numbers probably reflect the actual conversion more accurately.

But, if I understand correctly, permanent magic is outside this "wealth by level" tracking.


The 'Total Value' column is meant to give a complete budget for GMs who want to 'buy' magic items the way you would with PF1 WBL, so it includes assumed item values.

See here:

Quote:
The Total Value column gives an approximate total value of all the treasure, in case you want to spend it like a budget.

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FowlJ wrote:

The 'Total Value' column is meant to give a complete budget for GMs who want to 'buy' magic items the way you would with PF1 WBL, so it includes assumed item values.

See here:

Quote:
The Total Value column gives an approximate total value of all the treasure, in case you want to spend it like a budget.

You're right. That makes the "Party Treasure by Level" even more painful then I thought.


The conversion guide is up: http://paizo.com/products/btq01zyf?Pathfinder-Second-Edition-Conversion-Gui de

It contains a conversion from PF1 prices to PF2 levels (and prices).

Something that in PF1 costs 100 gold would be a level 1 item costing 15 gp in PF2 (suggesting 15%). A PF1 item costing 220,000 gold would be appropriate as a level 20 item costing 64,000 gp in PF2 (suggesting 29%).

I haven't checked exactly how and why this diverges from Fowljs tables.


If you want a mix between simple single number solutions, and per level solutions, could divide it up by level tier.

Taking averages from Fowlj's table, and some approximate, rounded values are:

1-5: 2.6% ~ 2.5%
5-10: 3.8% ~ 4.0%
11-15: 5.8% ~ 6.0%
16-20: 16.8% ~ 17.0%


Or, for the updated table:

1-5: 4.5%
6-10: 8%
11-16: 15%
17-18: 25%
19: 33%
20: 45%

(19 and 20 are on their own because WBL in PF2 absolutely skyrockets in the last couple levels, to the point where averaging it over several levels would inevitably be wildly inaccurate).


FowlJ wrote:

A somewhat important update: My original calculations for this were done using table 10-10: Character Wealth, which gives the starting money for a character of a given level. The book hadn't actually been released at this point, so I couldn't check the other tables.

I suspected that starting wealth was probably lower than earned wealth, and so I did a new comparison with the 'total value' column of table 10-9: Party Treasure by Level. The difference is quite dramatic. So, those numbers probably reflect the actual conversion more accurately.

Just to make sure I am understanding this right, this lets you take a reward sum of PF1 gold and convert it into a level appropriate reward sum of PF2 gold, yes?

So at level 10, if the AP lists a 10,000 gold reward, I would give them a 1,000 gold reward?

If so it seems very close to the formula Ediwir gave me, and I find it reassuring that you both independently drew similar conclusions. I'm not quite as number savvy as you two are, or at least not motivated enough to go to all this trouble.


Yes, that's correct. Theoretically, in an adventure where treasure is directly converted the PF2 party should have comparable spending power to the PF1 party, though that depends on what portion of the treasure is currency compared to items (which may or may not have comparable value across systems).


Cool, thanks!


FowlJ wrote:

A somewhat important update: My original calculations for this were done using table 10-10: Character Wealth, which gives the starting money for a character of a given level. The book hadn't actually been released at this point, so I couldn't check the other tables.

I suspected that starting wealth was probably lower than earned wealth, and so I did a new comparison with the 'total value' column of table 10-9: Party Treasure by Level. The difference is quite dramatic. So, those numbers probably reflect the actual conversion more accurately.

You need the "Party Currency". Or rather, the Currency by Additional PC, which is the same number only divided by 4. These amounts are per level, not accumulated totals.


That is, when Wheeldrake originally posted his question:

Wheldrake wrote:

Does anyone have any ideas about converting loot hauls?

My first instinct is to divide any loot by ten, converting gold pieces to silver pieces. But I suspect it should be reduced even further.

I'm less worried about magic items. I plan to go slow with items anyway.

...we should compare the currency (art objects, jewelry...) portion of those PF1 hauls to the "Party Currency" columns of table 10-9, assuming the PF1 hauls are divided over a party of four.

For instance, a PF2 party can expect to find 500 gold during their time as 6th level heroes, or 125 gp per hero.

When it comes to the classic Wealth By Level PF1 table that should instead be compared to the Total Value column of table 10-9, since it includes gear. Note WBL is per character and accumulated totals - table 10-9 is per party and per level!

In PF1, our heroes should expect to go from 16000 to 23500 gold during their sixth level (gaining 7500 gold each = 30000 gold), most of which is invested in magical items. In PF2, the party would instead gain 2000 gold during L6.

So, at 6th level 30000 gold becomes 2000 gold, which amounts to 0,066. (Again, talking items, consumables, pocket change, everything).

Only if magic items have retained the exact same cost relative to gold looted can we say "Award 7% of listed PF1 hauls (at level 6)", but while we await a more detailed analysis, that's as far as we can get.


Trying to use the currency reward is useless because the PF1 wealth by level that you're comparing to isn't exclusively currency. You would need to figure out which portion of the PF1 wealth is handed out as money by adventures and then use that for the conversion, which is a lot of unnecessary work when Paizo has already done to opposite and included the approximate total value including items for PF2.


FowlJ wrote:
Trying to use the currency reward is useless because the PF1 wealth by level that you're comparing to isn't exclusively currency. You would need to figure out which portion of the PF1 wealth is handed out as money by adventures and then use that for the conversion, which is a lot of unnecessary work when Paizo has already done to opposite and included the approximate total value including items for PF2.

I find this response really uncharitable, only focusing on the part that I myself only mention in passing. And I also mention the difficulty of estimating the total wealth to ready cash ratio.

What are your reactions to my other suggestions, given out as constructive advice to let us improve upon the rough estimates we both present in the beginning of the thread?

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