| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I saw that the sling was counted as a one-handed weapon and got excited, then noticed this bit under the Reload rule:
Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
That's super disappointing. There's some debate over how often slings were used in conjunction with shields, but to anyone decrying the notion, I'd like to cite Trajan's Column. Lindybeige has a video about using a sling with a shield, wherein he demonstrates the loading process. (I checked the Community Guidelines and saw nothing against providing links, but if I missed anything, let me know.)
Technically, you can use a buckler in conjunction with a sling, but that's extra strange since in reality, a buckler is specifically not strapped to your arm. (It's like brass knuckles had a baby with a frying pan.) It's not very useful, and weirdly, I think you could also technically use it in conjunction with a bow? :/
I understand that Pathfinder isn't a very simulationist game and does not aim to be super realistic. I'm just hoping I've missed something, since sling and shield is a configuration I've always liked. If your eyes caught something I've missed, please let me know.
Here's hoping they at least add it in as an option at some point. Slinger Ranger is best Ranger. (Just don't do the math.)
I'm not understanding the issue. Reloading a sling takes 1 Interact actions to accomplish. As per the rule you cited, this 1 Interact action will automatically take care of both letting go of the shield and re-establishing your grip, right? And if you don't have a shield (or anything else occupying your hand), then it still takes an Interact action and the "auto-let-go-and-regrip" rider just doesn't take place. So isn't it the same no matter what?
The only issue I can see is that the text specifies "weapon", and shields could be read as being "shields first, weapons second".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are holding an empty sling in one hand and a shield in the other, then you don't have a free hand available to reload the sling with.
So,
As per the rule you cited, this 1 Interact action will automatically take care of both letting go of the shield and re-establishing your grip, right?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you let go of the shield, you drop it on the floor. You can't just re-establish grip on it for free as part of the reload action.
As far as I can tell, you can use a sling and shield for one shot with the sling. Same goes for crossbows. After that, you need to either store the shield and reload (each as separate actions), or store/drop the sling and draw a different weapon to use - probably a melee weapon as you and the enemies close in for close combat.
I actually played crossbow and shield with the Paladin class in the playtest using that second tactic. One shot with the crossbow, then draw sword and wade in. Pick back up and reload the crossbow after the fight.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are holding an empty sling in one hand and a shield in the other, then you don't have a free hand available to reload the sling with.
So,
As per the rule you cited, this 1 Interact action will automatically take care of both letting go of the shield and re-establishing your grip, right?I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you let go of the shield, you drop it on the floor. You can't just re-establish grip on it for free as part of the reload action.
As far as I can tell, you can use a sling and shield for one shot with the sling. Same goes for crossbows. After that, you need to either store the shield and reload (each as separate actions), or store/drop the sling and draw a different weapon to use - probably a melee weapon as you and the enemies close in for close combat.
I actually played crossbow and shield with the Paladin class in the playtest using that second tactic. One shot with the crossbow, then draw sword and wade in. Pick back up and reload the crossbow after the fight.
I mean exactly what the text says: "switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon". The number of actions to reload a sling is (1) one. Therefore, within that (1) one action, besides the reloading of the sling itself, is ALSO the switching of your hand from "occupied" to "free" in order to reload AND the putting your hands back into the grip needed to wield the weapon once the reloading is concluded.
In other words, you don't need to store the shield and reload as separate actions because the latter automatically includes the former. I mean, what else would "the switching-and-regripping actions are included in the reload action or actions" mean if not that?
If you let go of the shield, you drop it on the floor.
As I understand it the shield is strapped to your arm and gripped with your hand. If you stop gripping it with your hand (freeing up your hand for other uses) it stops providing normal shield protection, but remains strapped to your arm.
That was written for ranged weapons, most of which are two handed and they didn't label a distinction for 1 handed. So it assumes you have two hands on the weapon. You let go with one and load and regrip.
The way I read that (and I assume OP) is that You have the shield hand. occupied with a shield.
Then you have your sling hand. You can not shift your grip to your other hand because the other hand is full of a shield. Not on the sling. and if you shift your Sling hand into a free hand.. You're not holding the sling to load it into- its just hanging off your wrist or something.That reloading section was written for 2 handed ranged weapon reloading. It didn't cover one handed weapons at all because typically you have one hand inherently free with 1 handed weapons. But in this case that extra hand is holding a shield. So you functionally have only one hand to do the proccess. To reload a ranged weapon you must have a free hand, but still must be equiping the weapon no?
So you can't strictly do reload a sling (or hand crossbow) with one hand only (the hand holding it).
Unless there's something I missed?
Okay, thanks. I would never have read it that way, so at least now I know how presumably the OP was getting the impression he got.
I'd say that the reasons I didn't are essentially twofold:
1) There are 21 thrown and ranged weapons in the game and only seven require 1+ or 2 hands*. So if the Reload paragraph was meant to go from "reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon" (which talks about everything ranged) to focusing on only 2-handed ranged reloading weapons, then that transition should have been explicitly stated and not assumed.
As it stands, the fact that "reload" is used as both the term for a specific type of ranged weapon, distinguishable from a thrown weapon, AND the overarching term that includes both, fails to hint at such a transition taking place. So the "switching your grip..." sentence, in my reading, is broadly talking about anything and everything.
2) I took the switch-and-replace-is-included-in-reloading clause to not literally mean the hand becoming unoccupied, just that it becomes unoccupied enough for the exclusive purpose of being able to assist in reloading. I.e., if I'm writing, my hand is occupied by a pen. I can hold that pen with a few of my fingers while I pick up a second in that same hand, though it might take some doing to continue writing with that pen while still holding a second in that same hand.
So your shield hand goes from "wielding" the shield to being merely strapped to it (no longer wielding the shield and still strapped to it), unoccupied enough to allow that hand to reload (since all ammunition thus far in the game is as easy to hold as pens).
Alternatively, see this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4y9dWzxrICU
Here, the demonstrator is using one of the hands involved in firing the bow to hold additional arrows. While not the same thing, it still tells me that neither an arrow nor a bolt would be so bulky as to be unholdable with a hand strapped-into-but-not-gripping a shield. The shield (bucklers excepted) would still be in the way for the purposes of firing the weapon, but that's taken care of anyway by the 1+ or 2 hands requirements (so you should totally be able to use a shield and a sling or a hand crossbow at the same time.
*What is the point of the distinction between 1+ and 2? A 1+ weapon can be carried in one hand, but requires two to wield as a weapon. Is this meant to say that it is impossible to so much as carry (not wield, just carry) a two-handed weapon in one hand? And if not, why is it there?
What is the point of the distinction between 1+ and 2?
A two handed weapon requires a two handed grip to use properly. A 1+ weapon is wielded in one hand but requires a free hand in order to function properly.
Consider 1+ weapons to be 2 handed weapons with a special property that makes it so you don't have to do anything to shift your grip on them.
Targes were held as well.
The only shields I can think of that were purely strapped were ones used as light missile defense.
Archers sometimes had hard leather shields to provide a little extra deflection from stray missiles and such. But if you aren't holding onto it a shield is not a very useful device against a melee strike.
This said, I think it would be 100% within the rules to say,
free action let go to free up the hand, then action to change grip/manipulate and then another action to raise shield. It is action intensive, but it really should be :P
What is the point of the distinction between 1+ and 2?A two handed weapon requires a two handed grip to use properly. A 1+ weapon is wielded in one hand but requires a free hand in order to function properly.
Consider 1+ weapons to be 2 handed weapons with a special property that makes it so you don't have to do anything to shift your grip on them.
Except you can do that with 2 handed weapons without that implied special property, anyway. Starting with both of your hands on the two-handed weapon and wielding it (and assuming the weapon is a 1-action reload), you release with the reloading hand, reload with the reloading hand, and re-establish your reloading hand's grip on your weapon, all in the same action. It's still a distinction without a difference.
Problem I get to, with using your shield hand is another case of "ghost rules" (like Aid and Assisting shot).
I can't find anywhere in the rules that state you can normally let go and use the hand briefly for other things.
Same thing from my end. The "hand-shuffling-automatically-included-in-reloading" being ONLY for two-handed ranged reloading weapons also looks like a "ghost rule".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's still a distinction without a difference.
No it isn't, because someone with a 1+ weapon has a hand free for all other purposes. Someone with a 2 handed weapon doesn't.
If someone with a crossbow is standing in front of a door they have to release the crossbow with one hand, interact to open the door, then interact again to ready their crossbow. That's a free action then two actions.
Someone with a longbow only has to do the one interact action.
Someone with a longbow can draw a potion, drink the potion, then attack in the same round. A crossbow user can't.
Just because it doesn't prevent you from reloading doesn't mean it doesn't do anything.
I'm glad I got so many responses. Hopefully that leads to some dev clarification. Before the discussion, I was 90% sure I got how it worked. Now, I'm down to maybe 60%. Part of that might be the effects of morning setting in, though.
Here's hoping this gets expanded on in a supplement or something. Slings get entirely too little love.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What is the point of the distinction between 1+ and 2?A two handed weapon requires a two handed grip to use properly. A 1+ weapon is wielded in one hand but requires a free hand in order to function properly.
Consider 1+ weapons to be 2 handed weapons with a special property that makes it so you don't have to do anything to shift your grip on them.
Except you can do that with 2 handed weapons without that implied special property, anyway. Starting with both of your hands on the two-handed weapon and wielding it (and assuming the weapon is a 1-action reload), you release with the reloading hand, reload with the reloading hand, and re-establish your reloading hand's grip on your weapon, all in the same action. It's still a distinction without a difference.
I'm still reading this as that you can automatically shift your grip on the weapon that you are reloading when you reload it.
Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
So I don't see this as getting a free action to shift your grip on your shield when reloading your sling. Nor can you shift grip on a one handed weapon - especially not to shift to holding it with zero hands so that you have a hand free to reload the weapon floating in mid-air all by itself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I don't see this as getting a free action to shift your grip on your shield when reloading your sling. Nor can you shift grip on a one handed weapon - especially not to shift to holding it with zero hands so that you have a hand free to reload the weapon floating in mid-air all by itself.
Okay, so while I agree that I don't think RAW supports reloading with a shield in your offhand, this is just straight-up hyperbole. Slings usually have a finger loop on one end, else they'd go flying when you released. I suppose you could just loop the end between your fingers if your sling didn't have one, but my point stands. As I understand if, in real world terms, you'd just be placing the sling cup in your off-hand, popping a bullet in with your right hand, then drawing the ends back tight with your sling hand. Not complicated at all. Hence the disappointment. No one is talking about ignoring physics here.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looking at the rules, it seems like Shields follow the rules for PF1 heavy shields and Bucklers follow the rules for PF1 light shields, vaguely speaking.
So.. I think instead of worrying over how odd bucklers are, just pretend they're a more normal sized, arm strapped shield and the shields you have to keep a grip on are much heavier varieties.
Okay, so while I agree that I don't think RAW supports reloading with a shield in your offhand, this is just straight-up hyperbole. Slings usually have a finger loop on one end, else they'd go flying when you released. I suppose you could just loop the end between your fingers if your sling didn't have one, but my point stands. As I understand if, in real world terms, you'd just be placing the sling cup in your off-hand, popping a bullet in with your right hand, then drawing the ends back tight with your sling hand. Not complicated at all. Hence the disappointment. No one is talking about ignoring physics here.
So I don't see this as getting a free action to shift your grip on your shield when reloading your sling. Nor can you shift grip on a one handed weapon - especially not to shift to holding it with zero hands so that you have a hand free to reload the weapon floating in mid-air all by itself.
For a cinematic description of events, yes that is absolutely hyperbole.
But from a game mechanic perspective, that is also exactly what Tectorman seems to be proposing. Switching grips on the sling to hold it in zero hands while reloading it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I don't see this as getting a free action to shift your grip on your shield when reloading your sling. Nor can you shift grip on a one handed weapon - especially not to shift to holding it with zero hands so that you have a hand free to reload the weapon floating in mid-air all by itself.
I made a comparison to holding multiple pens in the same hand at the same time for a reason. In that example, you are holding multiple pens in your hand (and unable to write with any of them) whereas you previously had one not just being held but able to be used to write. And no pens are floating in mid-air at any point.
I mean, gauntlets have a "free-hand" property, yes? Signifying that the material of the gauntlet is thin enough to not interfere with holding other things in the same hand? Okay, replace "thin material" with "strap", and they're the same thing (gauntlets don't suddenly float in mid-air just because your gauntleted hand is also holding a longsword).
And yes, I know that shields don't specifically have that property, but since "free-hand" does things that probably wouldn't apply to a shield anyway (immunity to disarming, for example), I don't see that as an issue, anyway, and see the lack of a similar separate "strap" property as merely an oversight.
Edit:
For a cinematic description of events, yes that is absolutely hyperbole.
But from a game mechanic perspective, that is also exactly what Tectorman seems to be proposing. Switching grips on the sling to hold it in zero hands while reloading it.
No.
I'm suggesting switching grips on the SHIELD to go from one effectively wielding hand to zero effectively wielding hands (but still strapped to the arm and hand) and back while reloading the sling.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm suggesting switching grips on the SHIELD to go from one effectively wielding hand to zero effectively wielding hands (but still strapped to the arm and hand) and back while reloading the sling.
Ah. My apologies for misunderstanding that.
I still don't think it works RAW since the reload action is giving you the option to change grips on the weapon, not something else. But I do concede that it can be read differently than that.