1 - Hellknight Hill (GM Reference)

[James Jacobs]

The Painted Oryx wrote:

Hey I am wondering about the new format for detailing NPCs in adventure paths..I noticed some, like Dmiri have race and class listed (hobgoblin ranger 4) whereas other NPCs like Voz don’t have any of that listed. Is that just an oversight for Voz or is that a difference in design?

Thanks!

It's something we're still working out. NPCs can duplicate PC class roles, but they are not those roles. Dmiri could have just as easilly been listed as a hobgoblin criminal 4 or a hobgoblin leader 4 or just a hobgoblin.

[ubiquitous]

jadony wrote:

2. As soon as it was revealed that Calmont was seen running away from the scene of the fire, and that he worked for the bookseller, the very first thing the group did was to go try to find/break into Voz's shop. We anticipate that many other groups will do something similar, setting up some issues in terms of plotting.

Just going to second that (after picking this up to run to introduce some folks to roleplaying and try out PF2), as much as I tried to assuage the party's suspicions and steer them towards following Calmont out of town, they wanted to investigate Voz's shop and - after finding it suspiciously closed - considered breaking in to continue the investigation.

As a follow-up they continued on to The Pickled Ear, and started pressing Roxie for information about Voz just because she was the innkeeper and someone to talk to! Fortunately their dice and lines of inquiry were unfavourable, so they eventually continued on to Hellknight Hill, naught gained but some pickled pigs' ears (proved useful for the goblin dogs).

Would've loved some assistance from the module in what to do if the PCs don't immediately chase off after Calmont.

Also, I'm curious as to how other parties handled putting out the fire. Once they defeated the mephit and had the bucket chain set up I handwaved them putting out the fire with the assistance of the townsfolk, but that fire grows awful fast, there's a lot of people to get out of the room, and the room is really kinda large.

I had a party of five, with one using their familiar to help escort people out of the room, and they were still brushing up against the "townsfolk remaining in the room die" round timer.

Also, my assumption is that the full-page art spread on page 2 is of Citadel Altaerein (and it is SWEET art by the way), except it doesn't match any of the actual maps or descriptions in the module. Unless it's of something else? I'm only guessing by the vague shape, importance, and the signal fires burning atop the (really tall) battlements.

[TheWanderingM]

jadony wrote:

1. The group felt it was a little ridiculous (in character and out) that a citadel crammed with baddies is only a mile outside of town. It made them feel as though the town should by rights have been facing a lot more danger, as well as that the town leadership was kind of crazy to wait to go investigate the source of the goblin distress signal when it can practically be seen out the window.

2. As soon as it was revealed that Calmont was seen running away from the scene of the fire, and that he worked for the bookseller, the very first thing the group did was to go try to find/break into Voz's shop. We anticipate that many other groups will do something similar, setting up some issues in terms of plotting.

I agree. That's why I placed the citadel 6 miles away. Anyhow the info didn't seem consistent to me.

I also decided that it starts raining shortly after the fire incident in the town hall, just to have a safe guard that the entire town hall doesn't go up in flame.

In terms of Calmond. I decided to let the player's not know the exact name of who got away. Considering the mayhem and chaos after the fire, someone saw a cloaked figure head out of town in general direction of Hellknight Hill. The player's can track him down (or maybe other travellers arriving at Breachill can say something on top) which can lead to a bit of tracking, which is made a bit easy by the mud from the rain.

[3Doubloons]

ubiquitous wrote:

jadony wrote:

2. As soon as it was revealed that Calmont was seen running away from the scene of the fire, and that he worked for the bookseller, the very first thing the group did was to go try to find/break into Voz's shop. We anticipate that many other groups will do something similar, setting up some issues in terms of plotting.

Just going to second that (after picking this up to run to introduce some folks to roleplaying and try out PF2), as much as I tried to assuage the party's suspicions and steer them towards following Calmont out of town, they wanted to investigate Voz's shop and - after finding it suspiciously closed - considered breaking in to continue the investigation.

As a follow-up they continued on to The Pickled Ear, and started pressing Roxie for information about Voz just because she was the innkeeper and someone to talk to! Fortunately their dice and lines of inquiry were unfavourable, so they eventually continued on to Hellknight Hill, naught gained but some pickled pigs' ears (proved useful for the goblin dogs).

Would've loved some assistance from the module in what to do if the PCs don't immediately chase off after Calmont.

Hellknight Hill, page 46 wrote:

When Voz learns about Calmont’s arson, she immediately considers him to be fired and, in an attempt to distance herself from his recent criminal actions, tells anyone who asks that she had already fired him a few days ago.

I presume Voz stays in town at least long enough to tell anyone who might suspect her of being involved that Calmont was acting on his own and she had already fired him. It's only after the PCs go to Citadel Altaerein that she skips town (and since the town isn't suspicious of her leaving town right after her apprentice committed arson, she probably had a decently convincing excuse, such as going to meet suppliers)

So if PCs go to the Reliant Book Company right after the fire, Voz would still be there to tell them that she had nothing to do with the fire and that she fired Calmont long before the Call for Heroes meeting

[Mechalibur]

I vaguely recall the book mentioning that Voz retreats to Guardian Way shortly after hearing about what happened with Calmont, which makes me think she must be in town during the start of the adventure (perhaps resupplying for another go at the tunnels). I agree that it would have been nice if the adventure had a short entry on what to do in that situation.

Here's my take: if the players question Voz, she (truthfully) explains that she had no idea that Calmont was going to burn the town hall, and recommends they take care of him quickly. She can also explain how he summoned the fire mephit, since her scroll went missing recently. However, she seems a bit nervous and cagey the whole conversation, and deflects any questions about why she had a mephit summoning scroll in the first place. About an hour after the PCs leave, she packs up her belongings and heads to Guardian's Way, determined to get to Alseta's Ring before Calmont can make it there. She doesn't realize that the way to Alseta's Ring is blocked anyway, since she fled the basement of the Citadel before the Cinderclaw Cult teleported in and busted up the stairs.

[James Jacobs]

The Painted Oryx wrote:

Hey I am wondering about the new format for detailing NPCs in adventure paths..I noticed some, like Dmiri have race and class listed (hobgoblin ranger 4) whereas other NPCs like Voz don’t have any of that listed. Is that just an oversight for Voz or is that a difference in design?

Thanks!

It's a result of us not quite having figured out how to make that transition. In 1st edition, NPCs often had PC class levels, and listing their class and level was a super handy way to summarize their thematic abilities and power in a one word, one number combo.

In 2nd edition, we lost that capability. NPCs are now custom built; they aren't monsters with class levels. This is a net positive, in that it really frees up design of NPCs to have them be exactly as tough as they need to be without loading them up with repetitive magic items (this helps fight the dreaded "christmas tree" syndrome; in 1st edition, in order to make an NPC hit the numbers for attacks and defenses they need to be viable we had to load them up with stat boosters), but it does mean we need to develop a new shorthand.

Which we were still working on in Hellknight Hill.

Going forward, I would expect us to list something like Dmiri as "Gender ancestry" and that's it if the have a full stat block, or "Gender ancestry job level" if they don't, in which case the "job" is a one-word description of their role (be it baker, guard, murderer, explorer, or whatever), and level is their creature level, NOT their "job" level.

[Shisumo]

If the PCs choose to go to Voz after hearing that Calmont was the arsonist and that he worked for the bookseller, they should find her there, frankly. She isn't supposed to have left town yet, and at that point really has no reason to. If the PCs question her, she doesn't even really have to lie: she'll say she fired Calmont, he stole a magical scroll from her on the way out, she hadn't yet decided if she wanted to go to the authorities about the theft or just wash her hands of him entirely. She can bad-mouth him all she wants, and since most of what she is saying is entirely accurate, she ought to probably get a bonus to her Deception DC for the few bits she's leaving out.

Even a successful roll is more likely to indicate that she's faking her outrage over the arson than anything else; the truth is, she's a cold fish and is far more upset that he betrayed her and stole from her than she is about how he nearly killed a couple dozen people in a fire. It won't even likely have occurred to her at that point that Calmont's defection is a threat to her; only later will she probably conclude that there's just enough danger to her plans if he manages to get himself caught that she might want to consider fabricating an excuse to head out of town.

[jadony]

Shisumo wrote:

If the PCs choose to go to Voz after hearing that Calmont was the arsonist and that he worked for the bookseller, they should find her there, frankly. She isn't supposed to have left town yet, and at that point really has no reason to. If the PCs question her, she doesn't even really have to lie: she'll say she fired Calmont, he stole a magical scroll from her on the way out, she hadn't yet decided if she wanted to go to the authorities about the theft or just wash her hands of him entirely. She can bad-mouth him all she wants, and since most of what she is saying is entirely accurate, she ought to probably get a bonus to her Deception DC for the few bits she's leaving out.

Even a successful roll is more likely to indicate that she's faking her outrage over the arson than anything else; the truth is, she's a cold fish and is far more upset that he betrayed her and stole from her than she is about how he nearly killed a couple dozen people in a fire. It won't even likely have occurred to her at that point that Calmont's defection is a threat to her; only later will she probably conclude that there's just enough danger to her plans if he manages to get himself caught that she might want to consider fabricating an excuse to head out of town.

Agreed that this would be the way to play it retroactively, although in the moment of trying to run the adventure on a skim with little prep as it was written, it didn't occur to me that this would be the case because I simply flipped to the "for more information about Voz's bookshop, see page X" as indicated in the description of the bookshop in the toolkit. Typically these sorts of issues wouldn't be a problem for me (like to digest an adventure with at least 1-2 full read throughs before I play) but in my haste to give it a spin, figured the book would guide me right.

[Maelorn7]

My players went to Voz right after the Call of Heroes fires and found her there, though they had to wait at the door as she closed the shop for "review of contents" after hearing that Calmont has summoned the Mephit.
She honestly said that the guards had already questioned her and she has nothing to do with Calmont going mad. She is annoyed with this second "questioning" by heroes but plays helpful and says that he is kinda a disaster of halfling but at least could read and work at the bookshop when she was out for business.
The interesting thing about it is that after all this questions from heroes Voz realises that Calmont can give out the informaton to PCs and the Council so she sends a message and orders her criminal hobgoblin to find Calmont first and kill him before he gives too much information away.
On the first session we stopped at defeating Calmont and will start next week with interrogation and when Players will ask too much of information about Voz and Alseta Ring he will get an arrow. This should make it more suspicious and make Voz even more villainy when they will meet the same hobgoblin later.
So far I find her not so much of a villain in a module as a curious necromancer. There is nothing bad after all about finding some lost gates. But hurting Calmont is surely a villain thing.

[Maelorn7]

What Voz fears in my case is that Calmont gives away her identity as Norgober cultist, I'm not quite sure she knows that Calmont discovered information about the Alseta Ring, but she can suspect this as well.

All in all I now wonder if she must flee the town or stay there to not get herself under suspect for the crime. I suppose staying in the town for the first time is more viable and after heroes return from the Citadel with Calmont's corpse (or mb they will keep him alive) she will get into a race with heroes for the Alseta's Ring (I'm sure they will dig into the citadel's basement) which puts Voz in direct opposition with heroes of which they don't know yet (and she can send some nasty undead minions on them on the road too, yay!).

[Maelorn7]

Sorry for tripple posting, but hell I just realized that as I have in my party the secret follower of Norgoberg and the Asmodeus Champion they can even ally with Voz and she need not be their adversary in the first place. They can try to explore secrets of the Alseta's Ring together and maybe reveal this Scarlet Triad thing and defeat the Cult of Cinder with joint efforts.

Not sure the module will support this approach but this would be awesome (Voz is pretty cool, I like her).

[Rysky]

How do you have a Champion of Asmodues? Homebrewing? Or is there already some 3pp stuff out?

[Maelorn7]

My player wanted to be one (she is VERY fond of Asmodeus) and she liked the Champion class so we just homebrewed the Oath and Tenets.
I just wont allow rules to tell me and my players what they can play and what they can not )). As long as we can agree upon the mechanics they can play whatever characters they want (she actually even made an art of a character for this game).
So I just allowed her to use mechanics for a single paladin path just with re-fluffed effects and when the official antipaladin rules are out we will rebuild the character (and will make it EPIC roleplay in the game when Asmodeus will claim her for evil).

[Rysky]

Cool.

As for your second statement, yeah, I don't think the module will really support a group of evil characters without a lot of tuning.

[Maelorn7]

Well as soon as the threat is going to be worldwide maybe it will work with them. Evil but lawful characters can still oppose the group of some mad cult and will certainly will not think twice before striking the Gold Dragon.
This will just be out of their self interests rather than - "We will save the world" thing ). Or I hope so... We'll see.
I just dont want Voz to be this mad woman with suicidal fighting rage which she appears in chapter 4 (In Module she just attacks the party right away in her area). I think such clever woman like her will at least parley about shared interests and if characters are not shy of necromancy and Norgober it could even work well...

[Rysky]

Yeah like I said, the book doesn't take into account that some of the PCs would be followers of Norgober, this would be something perfect for you to tweak for your group.

[Mhuirich]

TheWanderingM wrote:

jadony wrote:

1. The group felt it was a little ridiculous (in character and out) that a citadel crammed with baddies is only a mile outside of town. It made them feel as though the town should by rights have been facing a lot more danger, as well as that the town leadership was kind of crazy to wait to go investigate the source of the goblin distress signal when it can practically be seen out the window.

I agree. That's why I placed the citadel 6 miles away. Anyhow the info didn't seem consistent to me.

My main sticking point with this adjustment is that it's even more unrealistic to have a secret tunnel dug six miles (or ten, if you follow the gazetteer) underground from the citadel to the town. Even one mile pushes credibility a bit, but it's consistent in most of the text: pages 6, 12, 43, and 44 all agree on the 1 mile distance. Only the gazetteer is out of sync.

The reasons that the town isn't facing immediate danger is that the "baddies'" presence there is a recent development, and they are trapped where they are. Even if they all were free, without Huntersgate being opened they are at best a small bandit camp, a threat to travelers eventually, but in the month at most they've been there, there would have barely been time for the town to realize who had moved in.

As for the signal fires, I'm going with the idea that the keep is well known landmark, but that doesn't mean it's either a destination, or particularly convenient to get to. If it's a mile in the wrong direction to anywhere, Warbal may be the only one with a reason to get close enough to see the signal. With the goblins stuck on the battlements the whole time, it might have taken most of their time up there to scrounge enough wood to light the fires, or they may have waited until the scheduled meeting day to light them, so as to not run out of fuel.

[Grafz]

Ageron wrote:

I'm a little concerned that the halfling is too forthcoming. He tells them who the bad guy is, what she's after, and where to find her, and even implies she worships Norgorber. The DM can try to steer them back towards the secret entrance and clearing out the goblin territory, but I can already guess that some parties will pursue the Voz lead relentlessly.

Agree. As written it’s contrived and kind of painful. I like Joana’s solution. Where he has a backstory and some well thought out reasons for him to get into the situation he gets into.

Joana wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

I also feel similarly about Warbal. She gets a lot of text in the first scene and then 2(!) pages of backstory in the appendix... but you can sum her up in a sentence like "she's a nice goblin who likes books and her tribe and is here for plot exposition". If she's worried about them for a month.... The tribe is a mile away... why doesn't she just get off her duff and go there? She's a goblin with survival. She can walk a mile....It's a very weak opening for a story. She's a studious goblin who buys a lot of books... the villain is a bookseller but... never used... so many pages contributing so little to the story...

I'm tempted to skip her and start with the fire scene (in media res); with the guy in the goblin mask running off (see Joana's idea) and then, after the fire is sorted out, get the story out of her.

I'm more tempted to take Quindel (from Oblivion Oath) stick him in as the quest giver. Turn down his combat abilities compared to Oblivion Oath but keep the personality. Get rid of the ambassador thing and say he's "stuck in town because he's paying off a debt" (so he can't walk the mile himself because he told his "only non-goblin friend" he would stay and help).He helps the party out with some healing after the fire and begs that the consider his case even though the town won't listen to him.

Also, and I realize there is a direction from on high that goblins are different now (TM), but they were, until recently, generally homicidal maniacs in Golarion. I may have missed it but something about why the Bumblebrashers are different from normal goblins would really have been appreciated. Isger had lots of goblin conflict if I recall correctly....

[Mechalibur]

The Bumblebrashers haven't caused any issue for the town and occasionally trade with them, so I guess that's what makes them different from the classic goblins.

I agree that it's weird Warbal gets a full 2 pages in the NPC appendix. That space could have been used for characters more directly involved in the dungeon, like Alak or the Charau-Ka leader.

[Darkbridger]

I am trying to help someone that is new to DMing and I have not read or run 2E yet. Can someone verify the XP awards for the first encounter:

Moderate 30 And a Hero point?
Fire Mephit 40
Fire Hazard 40 It's complex, right?
Saving Spectators 100
Dousing the Fire entirely 30

For a total of 240xp? That seems... high... since it isn't divided by the number of people in the party. Does the encounter only award a max of 130? Trying to parse the new AP presentation and I'm not doing a good job it seems. :|

[James Jacobs]

Darkbridger wrote:

I am trying to help someone that is new to DMing and I have not read or run 2E yet. Can someone verify the XP awards for the first encounter:

Moderate 30 And a Hero point?
Fire Mephit 40
Fire Hazard 40 It's complex, right?
Saving Spectators 100
Dousing the Fire entirely 30

For a total of 240xp? That seems... high... since it isn't divided by the number of people in the party. Does the encounter only award a max of 130? Trying to parse the new AP presentation and I'm not doing a good job it seems. :|

That's about right. It's intended to give out a fair amount of experience points to get the PCs started on the way to 2nd level, but also 100% intended to showcase the fact right from the very start that fighting monsters isn't the only way to rake in experience points in 2nd edition. If we have 4 pages of text detailing relatively simple fights in dungeon rooms that, overall, gives out 240 XP, then it makes sense that 4 pages of text detailing a single complex encounter that involves things other than fighting could also give out 240 XP.

This allows us to do things in adventures like have big dinner parties, complex disasters, operas, political events, fairground fun, and all sorts of other things (like we often do in our adventures) without having to worry that those pages are "wasted" from an XP viewpoint and potentially force us not to reach 20th level.

The other option was to avoid these types of encounters and only do fights. No thanks! :-P

[Darkbridger]

Also how was the Stealth +6 initiative modifier calculated (if it was calculated) as the Mephit Bestiary entry does not list the Stealth skill. Or is this just part of the “monsters follow different rules” paradigm shift?

[James Jacobs]

Darkbridger wrote:

Also how was the Stealth +6 initiative modifier calculated (if it was calculated) as the Mephit Bestiary entry does not list the Stealth skill. Or is this just part of the “monsters follow different rules” paradigm shift?

That's a sneakier than normal mephit is all. The new monster design rules let us, and let a GM, adjust stats as needed for specific encounters—in this case, we wanted the mephit to be sneaky (in part because of the encounter's setup and theme, but also because we wanted to showcase very early on how Initiative doesn't always use Perception).

[Danbala]

I have a question about the Goblin Dogs. What check is used to improve their attitude? Diplomacy or Nature?

[James Jacobs]

Danbala wrote:

I have a question about the Goblin Dogs. What check is used to improve their attitude? Diplomacy or Nature?

I'd say Nature, but if you can speak to them somehow, then Diplomacy.

[3Doubloons]

Darkbridger wrote:

I am trying to help someone that is new to DMing and I have not read or run 2E yet. Can someone verify the XP awards for the first encounter:

Moderate 30 And a Hero point?
Fire Mephit 40
Fire Hazard 40 It's complex, right?
Saving Spectators 100
Dousing the Fire entirely 30

For a total of 240xp? That seems... high... since it isn't divided by the number of people in the party. Does the encounter only award a max of 130? Trying to parse the new AP presentation and I'm not doing a good job it seems. :|

Wait, where's that extra Moderate accomplishment coming from? I'm coming up to 180 XP on my end (Accounting for the now burnt-down husk of the Town Hall):

Moderate encounter: 80 XP (Mephit + Fire; hoping the encounters levels mentioned match up with the XP budgets so I don't have to calculate XP for each creature/hazard)
Saving Spectators: 100 XP
Dousing the fire: 0 XP (would have been 30 if not for the aforementioned failure)

Not that I mind having a reason to give my players more XP, I'm just not seeing where this accomplishment is noted in the book

[Darkbridger]

3Doubloons wrote:

Darkbridger wrote:

I am trying to help someone that is new to DMing and I have not read or run 2E yet. Can someone verify the XP awards for the first encounter:

Moderate 30 And a Hero point?
Fire Mephit 40
Fire Hazard 40 It's complex, right?
Saving Spectators 100
Dousing the Fire entirely 30

For a total of 240xp? That seems... high... since it isn't divided by the number of people in the party. Does the encounter only award a max of 130? Trying to parse the new AP presentation and I'm not doing a good job it seems. :|

Wait, where's that extra Moderate accomplishment coming from? I'm coming up to 180 XP on my end (Accounting for the now burnt-down husk of the Town Hall):

Moderate encounter: 80 XP (Mephit + Fire; hoping the encounters levels mentioned match up with the XP budgets so I don't have to calculate XP for each creature/hazard)
Saving Spectators: 100 XP
Dousing the fire: 0 XP (would have been 30 if not for the aforementioned failure)

Not that I mind having a reason to give my players more XP, I'm just not seeing where this accomplishment is noted in the book

I think that is my fault. I am confusing a Moderate encounter with a Moderate accomplishment. I'm not sure the entry in the module is designating a Moderate accomplishment though, so it should probably be a max of 210xp. The naming here is unfortunate and maybe I missed the "how to read an encounter entry" cheat sheet somewhere. I didn't realize the mistake until my friend showed me a later encounter that was "Low 1" and I realized what it was referring to.

I think the accomplishments should have been Minor/Average/Major to avoid confusion, but oh well.

Also, thanks for the quick answers Mr. TRex!

[Roswynn]

Sorry guys, I'm starting to prep Hellknight Hill, but I found some contradictory lines about Citadel Altaerein's distance from Breachill: on p. 6, Welcome to Breachill, and p. 12, it is said it's just over a mile, while on p. 63, last paragraph, the distance reported is 10 miles.

How far is the citadel from the town?

[fevian]

Quick question:

Any estimation of how old Greta Gardania might be, or when she worked at Lamond's Laments? It seems to have left this intentionally vague, but I don't want have to backtrack later in case it comes up. I figure it won't, but just want to make sure!

[James Jacobs]

Roswynn wrote:

Sorry guys, I'm starting to prep Hellknight Hill, but I found some contradictory lines about Citadel Altaerein's distance from Breachill: on p. 6, Welcome to Breachill, and p. 12, it is said it's just over a mile, while on p. 63, last paragraph, the distance reported is 10 miles.

How far is the citadel from the town?

It's a mile.

The original setup had it being longer, but I shortened the distance to make travel to and from the castle be less of an issue (I didn't want to imply there'd need to be wandering monsters on the trip, nor was there room to do a regional map), but also because I wanted the castle to be visible enough from town for folks to see the fires but also to see the castle itself, and to make the idea of a tunnel dug between the castle and town less outlandish.

[James Jacobs]

fevian wrote:

Quick question:

Any estimation of how old Greta Gardania might be, or when she worked at Lamond's Laments? It seems to have left this intentionally vague, but I don't want have to backtrack later in case it comes up. I figure it won't, but just want to make sure!

Her age is irrelevant to the metaplot of the Adventure Path as she doesn't really have a role to play in events to come; this is true for almost all of the townsfolk, in fact.

That said, her current age is the late 30s or early 40s.

[Fumarole]

Roswynn wrote:

Sorry guys, I'm starting to prep Hellknight Hill, but I found some contradictory lines about Citadel Altaerein's distance from Breachill: on p. 6, Welcome to Breachill, and p. 12, it is said it's just over a mile, while on p. 63, last paragraph, the distance reported is 10 miles.

How far is the citadel from the town?

Given that there is a secret tunnel from town to the citadel, one mile is much more likely to be the correct distance.

[Danbala]

James Jacobs wrote:

Danbala wrote:

I have a question about the Goblin Dogs. What check is used to improve their attitude? Diplomacy or Nature?

I'd say Nature, but if you can speak to them somehow, then Diplomacy.

I just noticed that the Ranger has a feat called "wild Empathy" that allows players to use Diplomacy with animals. Does that mean that other players can't use diplomacy with animals?

If so, how do I reconcile that with the instructions on page 24 regarding the warg puppies: "While predisposed to the cruelty of their kind, they could grow into friendlier creatures if given love and support. This requires a successful DC 16 Diplomacy check each day, and does not count as a downtime activity. After 10 successful checks, the warg puppies’ attitude toward a PC becomes friendly, and the creatures will follow a range of commands."

Is it based on the intelligence of the animals?

[James Jacobs]

Danbala wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Danbala wrote:

I have a question about the Goblin Dogs. What check is used to improve their attitude? Diplomacy or Nature?

I'd say Nature, but if you can speak to them somehow, then Diplomacy.

I just noticed that the Ranger has a feat called "wild Empathy" that allows players to use Diplomacy with animals. Does that mean that other players can't use diplomacy with animals?

If so, how do I reconcile that with the instructions on page 24 regarding the warg puppies: "While predisposed to the cruelty of their kind, they could grow into friendlier creatures if given love and support. This requires a successful DC 16 Diplomacy check each day, and does not count as a downtime activity. After 10 successful checks, the warg puppies’ attitude toward a PC becomes friendly, and the creatures will follow a range of commands."

Is it based on the intelligence of the animals?

Note that the method by which you use Diplomacy to adjust attitudes has the "Linguistic" trait. That means that when you use this activity to adjust an attitude, you and the attitude adjustment target need to understand each other's language. Animals don't understand language (you'll see in the animal entries in the Bestiary, for example, that they don't have a "Languages" entry"; that's a factor of them being Animals and having what is essentially an Intelligence score of 2 or lower).

The ranger's Wild Empathy feat allows them to dodge that limitation, as would any effect that allows you to speak with the animal in question.

NOW

Moving on to the warg puppies, the thing there is that wargs are NOT animals. They're beasts. They are not that much less intelligent than an average human, and as listed on page 322 of the Bestiary, they speak Common, Goblin, and Orcish. Thus, you CAN use Diplomacy to Make an Impression on them. They're puppies, and have a vocabulary about on par with what a toddler or very young child might have, but they still understand... provided you speak to them in Common, Goblin, or Orcish, that is.

As for the ranger and Wild Empathy... wargs are not creatures of the "natural world" and as such, Wild Empathy isn't needed or useful to the ranger in this case. ANY ranger can use Diplomacy to Make an Impression on a warg, provided said ranger can speak a language the target warg understands.

The goblin dogs the original question asked about, though, ARE animals, and in that case the ranger with Wild Empathy gets to use that ability as indicated.

[Roswynn]

James Jacobs wrote:

Roswynn wrote:

Sorry guys, I'm starting to prep Hellknight Hill, but I found some contradictory lines about Citadel Altaerein's distance from Breachill: on p. 6, Welcome to Breachill, and p. 12, it is said it's just over a mile, while on p. 63, last paragraph, the distance reported is 10 miles.

How far is the citadel from the town?

It's a mile.

The original setup had it being longer, but I shortened the distance to make travel to and from the castle be less of an issue (I didn't want to imply there'd need to be wandering monsters on the trip, nor was there room to do a regional map), but also because I wanted the castle to be visible enough from town for folks to see the fires but also to see the castle itself, and to make the idea of a tunnel dug between the castle and town less outlandish.

Thank you, James, I wanted to make sure. Great answer also about the warg puppies, btw.

Thanks again! =)

[E_B]

If the citadel’s battlements are 25 feet above the courtyard, they can't be 30 feet above ground level, which is already higher than the courtyard.
Is the battlements "just a bit" shorter than those represented in art?

[James Jacobs]

E_B wrote:

If the citadel’s battlements are 25 feet above the courtyard, they can't be 30 feet above ground level, which is already higher than the courtyard.

Is the battlements "just a bit" shorter than those represented in art?

Yes. Sometimes art and text don't match up as best we want, especially when art comes in very late and there's no time to change the text.

[Grafz]

I may have missed it but is it written down when the following events occur? It's not clear to me whether Noz is running around when the Brumblebrashers are in the keep, or only after they've been driven out, etc.

- Cinderclaws open Gate to Hellknight Hill
- Noz discovers tunnel to Hellknight Hill
- Noz cuts a deal with
- Noz does necromantic ritual/research (triggers ward and is driven off by undead)
- Brumblebrashers driven out by invading Cinderclaws (stairwell collapses)
- Gate Cinderclaws were using is closed
- Calmont finds out about Noz's expirations to Hellknight Hill (but not how she's getting in and out presumably)
- Alak arrives in Breachill (presumably he traveled through on his way to Hellknight Hill)?
- Alak arrives in Hellknight Hill (just before the PCs? I guess?)
- Others?

[Mechalibur]

I think Voz explored the citadel before the Cinderclaws opened the gate. It says she's had her base in the Goblinblood Caves for quite a few days now, which would have happened after triggering the wards in the basement of the Citadel.

[Grafz]

Mechalibur wrote:

I think Voz explored the citadel before the Cinderclaws opened the gate. It says she's had her base in the Goblinblood Caves for quite a few days now, which would have happened after triggering the wards in the basement of the Citadel.

So something like

2 months ago?
- Noz discovers tunnel to Hellknight Hill
- Noz cuts a deal with innkeeper
- Noz does necromantic ritual/research (triggers ward and is driven off by undead)

Goblins, Kobolds and undead are all hanging out together downstairs (the goblin intelligence sidebar mentions "dead people" so this checks out)

1 months ago
- Cinderclaws open Gate to Hellknight Hill
- Brumblebrashers driven out by invading Cinderclaws (stairwell collapses)
- Gate Cinderclaws were using is closed

Last week
- Alak arrives in Breachill (presumably he traveled through on his way to Hellknight Hill)?
- Calmont finds out about Noz's expirations to Hellknight Hill (but not how she's getting in and out presumably) and plans is own trip there

Today
- Calmont realizes the town may send a group to investigate Hellknight Hill - panics and starts the fire
- Alak arrives in Hellknight Hill (just before the PCs? I guess?)
- Others?

[Colette Brunel]

"When the Hellknights dug into the hill to excavate crypts, vaults, and dungeons for their fortress, they discovered the ruins of Alseta’s Ring, yet they never deciphered the purpose of the long-inactive elf gates."

Identify Magic is Arcana (Intelligence), Nature (Wisdom), Occultism (Intelligence), or Religion (Wisdom). Could none of the Hellknights of the Nail could hit the DC 22 check to Identify Magic on the elf gates? How were they unable to decipher the purpose of the portal network?

[Ed Reppert]

Colette Brunel wrote:

"When the Hellknights dug into the hill to excavate crypts, vaults, and dungeons for their fortress, they discovered the ruins of Alseta’s Ring, yet they never deciphered the purpose of the long-inactive elf gates."

Identify Magic is Arcana (Intelligence), Nature (Wisdom), Occultism (Intelligence), or Religion (Wisdom). Could none of the Hellknights of the Nail could hit the DC 22 check to Identify Magic on the elf gates? How were they unable to decipher the purpose of the portal network?

Rule 4,792: Never let the rules get in the way of the story.

Come to think on it, maybe that's rule 2. (Rule 1 is "have fun!")

[Shisumo]

My assumption is that the aiudara weren't functioning at the time and thus had no magical auras to recognize. It was only when Mengkare got involved that the portals awakened.

[James Jacobs]

Colette Brunel wrote:

"When the Hellknights dug into the hill to excavate crypts, vaults, and dungeons for their fortress, they discovered the ruins of Alseta’s Ring, yet they never deciphered the purpose of the long-inactive elf gates."

Identify Magic is Arcana (Intelligence), Nature (Wisdom), Occultism (Intelligence), or Religion (Wisdom). Could none of the Hellknights of the Nail could hit the DC 22 check to Identify Magic on the elf gates? How were they unable to decipher the purpose of the portal network?

That's 1st edition thinking. In 2nd edition, NPCs aren't the same as PCs. In this case, none of the Order figured the portals out—either because that was beyond their skill, not really of interest to them, or the like. One of the biggest attractions to me (and in time, I suspect, to any GM who writes an adventure) is this fact—that PCs can do things NPCs cannot.

(Had I more skill at the game at the time I'd developed it, perhaps I would have gated identifying them behind Expert in those skills, which would have further helped to put it out of reach of the typical Hellknight.)

[James Jacobs]

Ed Reppert wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

"When the Hellknights dug into the hill to excavate crypts, vaults, and dungeons for their fortress, they discovered the ruins of Alseta’s Ring, yet they never deciphered the purpose of the long-inactive elf gates."

Identify Magic is Arcana (Intelligence), Nature (Wisdom), Occultism (Intelligence), or Religion (Wisdom). Could none of the Hellknights of the Nail could hit the DC 22 check to Identify Magic on the elf gates? How were they unable to decipher the purpose of the portal network?

Rule 4,792: Never let the rules get in the way of the story.

Come to think on it, maybe that's rule 2. (Rule 1 is "have fun!")

Exactly. And in this case... that rule is built into the game.

[Mechalibur]

Even if they figured out the purpose, would they have any way of activating them?

[Captain Morgan]

James Jacobs wrote:

Note that the method by which you use Diplomacy to adjust attitudes has the "Linguistic" trait. That means that when you use this activity to adjust an attitude, you and the attitude adjustment target need to understand each other's language. Animals don't understand language (you'll see in the animal entries in the Bestiary, for example, that they don't have a "Languages" entry"; that's a factor of them being Animals and having what is essentially an Intelligence score of 2 or lower).

The ranger's Wild Empathy feat allows them to dodge that limitation, as would any effect that allows you to speak with the animal in question.

So can a character use Nature to improve an animals attitude? This isn't really spelled out in the rules as far as I can tell, and the Wild Empathy feat does sort of imply it can't be done normally, else a Wild Empathy Ranger would probably want to use Nature instead as it is likely to have a high bonus than Diplomacy.

The Command an Animal command doesn't actually say anything about improving its attitude, and neither does the Train Animal feat. The only thing other than Wild Empathy or its equivalent Gnome feat I can see is the Bonded Animal feat, which is a little bit beyond just getting a couple dogs to warm up to you.

And I think it would actually be fine if you can't just roll a Nature check to Improve an animals Attitude as though they were a person you used Diplomacy on. Instead making an animal like you is going to be about doing the right things in the right context, much like real life.

To use the goblin dogs as an example, the book doesn't mention making a check to improve their attitude-- it just says you can do so by feeding them each a morsel of meat. It never would have occurred to me that you could use Nature to try to improve their attitude if it hadn't been for this discussion. Instead, I'd have let my players roll Nature to see if the characters know enough about goblin dogs that this would win them over. Perhaps on a critical success I'd tell them that the bit about "the more putrid, the better," and if they got a really rank piece of meat I might improve the goblin dog's attitude's TWO steps instead of one.

[Captain Morgan]

Anyway, I got sidetracked... The reason I came to this thread in the first place is because I picked up this book because I was curious to see how settlements are statted out for factors like job levels and item availability. I'd have assumed Breachhill would have had a stat block like settlements in PF1 had, but I haven't spotted it yet in the Player's Guide or the book. Am I missing something here?

[Joana]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Anyway, I got sidetracked... The reason I came to this thread in the first place is because I picked up this book because I was curious to see how settlements are statted out for factors like job levels and item availability. I'd have assumed Breachhill would have had a stat block like settlements in PF1 had, but I haven't spotted it yet in the Player's Guide or the book. Am I missing something here?

Addressed here:

Marco Massoudi wrote:

1. Are settlement stat blocks no longer a thing in SE?

James Jacobs wrote:

1) We'll get to settlement stat blocks eventually but as of the time of workng on this adventure we hadn't figured out how to do them in 2nd edition. Later volumes will have some settlement stat block experiments, but until the Game Mastery Guide is done we won't have a final look for them.

[Captain Morgan]

Joana wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Anyway, I got sidetracked... The reason I came to this thread in the first place is because I picked up this book because I was curious to see how settlements are statted out for factors like job levels and item availability. I'd have assumed Breachhill would have had a stat block like settlements in PF1 had, but I haven't spotted it yet in the Player's Guide or the book. Am I missing something here?

Addressed here:

Marco Massoudi wrote:

1. Are settlement stat blocks no longer a thing in SE?

James Jacobs wrote:

1) We'll get to settlement stat blocks eventually but as of the time of workng on this adventure we hadn't figured out how to do them in 2nd edition. Later volumes will have some settlement stat block experiments, but until the Game Mastery Guide is done we won't have a final look for them.

Awwww, man. Well, consider me one more voice letting people know I want stat blocks back in adventures.