If this monster would be defeated, roll 1d4. On a 1 it is evaded and a random local character encounters it.
Wording seems just a bit strange and you may wonder if it means something like
- When defeated, roll 1d4. On a 1 a random local character summons and encounters another Barghest.or
- When defeated, roll 1d4. On a 1 a random local character must avenge that card.
I guess it's the later (meaning if the first character fails to defeat, the monster isn't shuffled back in the location: it is the same monster that the random local character must encounter and if that character defeats the monster, it is indeed the original one that is banished and nothing goes back in the location).
OK but then:
Non-story banes cannot be evaded.
What happens if I meet a Barghest at the Bridge and defeat it? I roll 1d4. But it cannot be evaded.
I wonder if in that case, it is actually defeated immediately and banished.
Ahem.
The Barghest doesn't have a "instead" attached (and I don't think it's implied). If a 1 is rolled, you ignore the evasion.
If you evade the card, do not activate any other powers on it; the encounter is over. If it is a boon, you did not acquire it; if it is a bane, it is neither defeated nor undefeated.
Since you couldn't evade the Barghest, the Barghest is defeated (since there is no instead). But before that, a random local character would have to still encounter it, since that happens before the defeat. The issue then is what happens if the re-encountered Barghest isn't defeated.
If you did not succeed at all of the checks required to defeat the bane, it is undefeated; if no local character wishes to avenge your encounter (see below), apply all effects that happen when the bane is undefeated, then shuffle the bane back into its location.
Since the bane was encountered a second time, while the bane was defeated the first time, it doesn't matter; it would get shuffled back into its location (where it would presumably forget that it was defeated the first time.)
It's like your second option, except things that trigger when undefeated don't trigger.
That being said, I would prefer that the intent is that evasion can't be overridden ("it is always evaded") or overridden explicitly ("it is evaded; ignore any effects that say it can't evaded..."). Things that use the evasion effect as an override along with another side effect have issues when evasion can't be done.
Since you couldn't evade the Barghest, the Barghest is defeated (since there is no instead). But before that, a random local character would have to still encounter it, since that happens before the defeat.
I disagree. To me, [it is evaded and a random local character encounters it] is a whole power, that must be applicable in its entirety or not at all; so if evasion is impossible - you also ignore the second encounter. I admit I don't have strict rule support in that, but it's what makes sense to me flavor-wise - the idea is obviously that on 1, the Barghest escapes and another character encounters the SAME Barghest. So if it CAN'T escape (and is therefore defeated)- obviously it can't be encountered again.
There are a few things here however:
- First, Frencois's second option is not correct either - having a character encounter the Barghest on 1 is NOT avenging
- Second, if you roll 1, you CAN'T actually avenge - you DID succeed at all the checks to defeat (see zeroth_hour's second rules quote), it only so happens that the monster's powers save it from you! (and you can only avenge it if it is UNDEFEATED - which evaded explicitly ISN'T ((see zeroth_hour's first rules quote)
- Third, "a card can never cause you to summon a copy of itself" - so the second encounter CANNOT be a summon. However, that's a double-edged sword - as it now makes it possible to run an infinite number of encounters (or, more realistically, at least a very absurd number of them), as the Barghest continues to force itself upon you on a particularly bad string of 1 rolls (which the summon rules specifically aimed to cut off)
First, Frencois's second option is not correct either - having a character encounter the Barghest on 1 is NOT avenging
I agree, I wrote that fast to make my point. I guess a more precise working would be something (to check again) like
"When it would be defeated, roll 1d4. On a 1 it is not defeated and a random local character encounters it instead."Second, if you roll 1, you CAN'T actually avenge
Yep.
Third, "a card can never cause you to summon a copy of itself"
Yep. that's where it starts to be interestning.
It now makes it possible to run an infinite number of encounters on a particularly bad string of 1 rolls
Yep, we rolled 4 times 1 in a row. Then someone asked me why on earth we were killing the full party applying the evasion sentence whereas we where at the bridge.
OK, that's my personal candidate for the weekly can'o'worms contest. Mike? Vic?
So,
1. Cannot overrides can per Golden Rules. So, the evasion doesn’t happen. This does not mean that the evasion power is impossible (and ignored), just that you don’t do it.
2. Only the evasion doesn’t happen. If you roll a 1, someone else still gets to have fun with another encounter.
3. The final encounter determines the outcome of the card. The power is “when you would” which is PACG parlance for “apply this power before the triggering condition actually happens.” That means we roll the 1d4 and do the 2nd encounter before we get around to declaring the first encounter defeated. If the 2nd encounter is defeated, we roll another 1d4 and possibly trigger a 3rd encounter before we get around to declaring the 2nd one defeated, and so on. Once we stop rolling 1, that final encounter will have us banish the Barghest if defeated or shuffle it back into the location deck if not. After it’s banished or shuffled back in, the encounters further up the chain say “banish this card” — it’s either already banished (so no effect) or shuffled into the location deck (so banishing becomes an impossible instruction and is therefore ignored, as we aren’t allowed to look through locations unless explicitly told to).
OK.
1) I'm not at the Bridge
Say I have a scenario/wildcard power that says "When you fail to defeat a monster you encounter, take 600 damage".
If I defeat the Barghest and roll 1:
A) Do I take 600 damage? yes IMHO: it did EVADE so it's not defeated nor undefeated.
B) Do I take them before or after the next character encounter the Barghest (it's important to know if I will be able to help or if I will be out of cards)? Seems it happens at the time it evades (since it is at that time that you fail to defeat).
So it will happen multiple times to different characters as long as they defeat and roll 1. Might as well lose the first fight.
2) Now at the bridge, and following your logic only the last character would lose 600 damage and only if it fails to defeat (if he defeats and roll 2-4 nobody loses 600 damage).
Interestning side effect.
If not at the Bridge:
A. Yes. Evaded = neither defeated or undefeated. Fail to defeat = any outcome other than defeated.
B. You would take the 600 damage before the next character begins the Barghest encounter.
B is before the next encounter because you would evade the Barghest (due to nothing stopping the evasion from happening). Evasion says “the encounter is over” which means you fully resolve anything that happens due to that encounter. We fully apply everything that a power says in the order the power says it, so we apply evading the card (and all effects that happen as a part of that evasion, such as resolving the encounter with a “neither defeated nor undefeated” status). Then, the next character encounters the Barghest.
Things only get weird once we block the evasion from happening. Then, we get nested encounters instead of sequential ones, meaning that they are resolved in the reverse order that they were started in (in other words, a stack)
Chief Technical Officer
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So,
1. Cannot overrides can per Golden Rules. So, the evasion doesn’t happen. This does not mean that the evasion power is impossible (and ignored), just that you don’t do it.
2. Only the evasion doesn’t happen. If you roll a 1, someone else still gets to have fun with another encounter.
3. The final encounter determines the outcome of the card. The power is “when you would” which is PACG parlance for “apply this power before the triggering condition actually happens.” That means we roll the 1d4 and do the 2nd encounter before we get around to declaring the first encounter defeated.
You're correct up until that last bit. Since there's nothing changing the defeat to evasion, you're not in some kind of indeterminate state where the outcome is pending—it has already been defeated.
(By the way, nested encounters are like matter and antimatter colliding. There are a lot of rules engineered to make sure that can't happen, but if you need to, fall back to the admittedly nonspecific "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" to make it so.)
I’m going to chalk that up to “too much cold medicine.”
I hope you feel better soon!
Worst thing we imported from the US: the cooling machine. Since then (and the supposely non existing global warming) the profit of French cold medicine vendors went to the roof.
Hoping you'll get well soon. Thanks for all the work done.
Loot Alchemical Item 6 : "Cure for the Common Cold"
Display next to a character
When displayed, anytime you suffers cold damage, bury a card.
When displayed, if you have more than 8 cards in your bury pile, heal all your cards and banish this card.
During recovery:
If proficient, succeed at a 50 Intelligence check to understand how this item was once crafted and draw immediately a gazillion of new loots and retire your character on a desert WARM island.