General question--alright, I suppose two:
What is your favorite class (along with archetype, PC, whatever) to play as a dwarf?
In which classes do they really get to shine the most?
J
Monks (zen archer especially nice)
Druids
Clerics and Inquisitors with the travel domain
Barbarians
They can make pretty scary Cavaliers with their favored class bonus (and make a fairly hilarious daring champion)
Basically anything that lets them get around the movement penalty and wants a Con boost.
Dwarf Kineticists are awesome, a racial boost to their core stat of Con alongside a huge boost to saving throws makes them hellishly tanky. Notably, a Dwarven Kinetic Knight is a pretty fun (if limiting as it makes the Dwarf a pure melee combatant instead of a burst-mage).
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Haven't played it but the Stonelord paladin looks wonderful. The dwarven druid in the Runelords game I run is excellent. My one dwarven PC is/was a transmuter wizard/loremaster, not mechanically the best, but great concept and role play.
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Haven't played it but the Stonelord paladin looks wonderful. The dwarven druid in the Runelords game I run is excellent. My one dwarven PC is/was a transmuter wizard/loremaster, not mechanically the best, but great concept and role play.
I'll have put my vote in for wizard as well. Certainly not optimized, but makes surviving the lower levels much more doable. Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation are the most traditional schools.
I actually designed an all dwarf dungeon crawl once which was a lot of fun.
In 5e I made a halfplate wearing, warhammer and shield wielding dwarven necromancer. He was a lot of fun.
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Haven't played it but the Stonelord paladin looks wonderful. The dwarven druid in the Runelords game I run is excellent. My one dwarven PC is/was a transmuter wizard/loremaster, not mechanically the best, but great concept and role play.I'll have put my vote in for wizard as well. Certainly not optimized, but makes surviving the lower levels much more doable. Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation are the most traditional schools.
I actually designed an all dwarf dungeon crawl once which was a lot of fun.
That does sound fun!
When 3.0 opened up the possibility of dwarven wizards, I loved the idea, of dwarves being, in particular, rune-wizards who inscribed spells on stone walls in their keep-like studies, and magical crafters without peer.
Elves would seem more thematically to be innately magical, and more commonly sorcerers or bards, than wizards, and even kind of look down on folk who have to study 'till their eyes bleed to call forth the sort of power that comes naturally to them, as part of their birthright. (Needless to say, some disciplined dwarven wizards would have a similarly scathing view of flighty elven sorcerers and their 'unearned' power that they don't understand or deserve...)
General question--alright, I suppose two:
What is your favorite class (along with archetype, PC, whatever) to play as a dwarf?
In which classes do they really get to shine the most?
Currently playing a dwarf druid with the fire domain.
A dwarf ranger in a giant based campaign is pretty good. Take favored defense and max out favored enemy giant and you have something that takes down giants pretty easily.
A dwarf warpriest can give a paladin a run for his money when it comes to survivability. If they use a high critical threat weapon they get particularly good.
Probably one of the best classes for a dwarf is inquisitor. The heavy focus on WIS allows the dwarf to really shine. Stalwart combined with the dwarf bonus to saves makes your character extremely resistant to magic. Add in swift action buffs and judgements if necessary and you have a character who can laugh at most spell casters. The fact that with the right inquisition you get to be the party face despite dumping CHA to the floor is just icing on the cake.
I’ve mapped out 31 one characters but not one of them was a dwarf.
Not that fond but if I had to make one I’d either make a Kineticist or a Spiritualist, dwarf spiritualists are probably the strongest characters in terms of Will saves and mind effecting effects, so that’s a fun gimmick at least.
I do like Dwarven Wizards, no INT bonus just means you appreciate all the spells without Saves (or with multiple targets/AoE) that much more. With theii bonus stats being some of strongest defensive stats to begin with, you're are not that bad off at all. Oh, and their Slow and Steady means you avoid normal (mostly low level) problem with dumping STR.
Actually, similar dynamic applies to Dwarven Rogues which is a favorite of mine that hasn't been mentioned here. Something about works well thematically, and it's a strong over-all package if not min-maxed in offense that isn't always my preferred approach. Dwarven weapons help improve Rogue repertoire, Slow and Steady, and the Stone bonuses are great for Trapfinding schtick. Rogues get type cast as skinny lithe tweakers, so it's fun to play with that by playing the solid as rock bad hombre Dwarf rogue (STR or DEX focus is even more of toss-up with Slow & Steady).
Core fighter, with a splash of core cleric and core barbarian (in fact, have them all by 3rd) to give him skills and the fury of (your deity).
Magus, if you want to be less of a glass cannon than the usual Magus.
And Phantom Blade Spiritualist is also a good option for doing a broadly similar thing, although considerably different in detail.
Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor is my favorite from a game mechanics point of view. From a role playing perspective my favorite was a dwarven bard who knew the tales of a hundred dwarven kings and didn’t mind lecturing others on the superiority of dwarven ale, architecture, engineering, and everything else.
Magus, if you want to be less of a glass cannon than the usual Magus.
One time I had to roll up an 8th level replacement character and made a Skirnir Magus with a Dorn-Dergar which was an absolutely amazing character. I figure the first 6-7 levels would have been rough, but once you get spell combat/strike with reach *and* a shield you are formidable.
Dwarf Bloodrager. Pick the Fire bloodline, put some ranks into profession blacksmith, and you have basically a living forge.
The single-classed fighter is often looked-down upon, but dwarves are the best at it. In heavy armor with a full load-out of weapons, you're expecting to be a little slower. The dwarf just keeps on trucking with 300 pounds of gear.
Full (or stone) plate and a weapon for every need. The wisdom and save bumps help overcome the biggest weakness in pure-melee brutes: poor will saves. Constitution is always welcome in a front-liner and who needs charisma. Your steel does the talking.
My next PC (1st in PF2) is probably going to be a dwarven barbarian with dual dwarven axes. The PF2 action-economy makes dual-wielding barbarians quite interesting.
. . . and Dwarves make Fighter archetypes that trade out Armor Training better, as well as making better the option to replace all but the 1st rank of Armor Training with Advanced Armor Training, since as a Dwarf, Armor never slows you down.
And your Steel Soul does the talking when you are hit with a spell requiring a Save.
Haven't played it but the Stonelord paladin looks wonderful.
I'm playing one in PFS, and he's survived to 9th level so far. The stalwart defender abilities that the archetype gets make him very tanky, and Bjorn's last few levels in particular have been great fun. (Be sure to take fatigue as your first mercy at 6th level, so that can move and re-enter your stance more quickly.) The only class feature I really miss is smite evil, but the stone strike ability does occasionally have it uses.
Plus, the number of times that I get to say "I'm not that kind of paladin" is perversely amusing. (Smite evil? Nope. Divine grace? So what, I'm a dwarf. Spells? You wish.) And most people don't expect a dwarf in full plate to have a Dex bonus.
Yeah, I think I'll go with the fighter. I've had a tough time putting together a fighter I think is interesting, and I've wanted to use a dwarf but wasn't sure what chassis to build him on. Fighter archetypes are so funky it's hard to pick one.
Any thoughts on a good archetype (if any) or a dwarven fighter? I have considered the foehammer as it sounds interesting, but I'm not married to it.
J
Vanilla Fighter, Weapon Master, Mutation Warrior, and Spear Fighter are IMO the best fighter archetypes.
Generally you do not want anything that locks you out of advanced weapon training and might not want anything that locks you out of advanced armor training.
Dwarf ninja or samurai for the win
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Dwarf alchemists can do quite well, especially with the increased natural armor bonus alternate FCB to mutagens.
Dwarf arcanists aren't the best with many of the exploits (due to the Cha penalty), but are a bit tougher overall; a pretty decent choice for a blade adept/eldritch knight.
Dwarf barbarian (possibly invulnerable rager) is often a good choice for a combatant; the Con bonus increases hp and the rounds of Rage; the Wis bonus and racial traits improve saving throws. Pick up proficiency in heavy armor (with a feat or a dip in another class, if not gained through an archetype) and wear mithral heavy armor (tatami-do, o-yoroi, or full plate, depending on Dex) at higher levels while retaining full movement (including Fast Movement).
Dwarf bard (possibly arcane duelist, archaeologist, archivist, negotiator*, stonesinger, or voice of Brigh; or dwarven scholar) or skald (possibly battle scion, spell warrior, urban skald, or warlord) can work pretty well, even with the Cha penalty.
Dwarf bloodragers (possibly ancestral harbinger, blood conduit, id rager, primalist, spelleater, steelblood, symbol striker, untouchable rager, or urban bloodrager) that focus a bit more on fighting than spells aren't bad.
*- such as in The Fifth Element sense ("We're sending someone in to negotiate!" [BANG!] "Anyone else want to negotiate?")
I like the idea of playing a Dwarf but I tend to gravitate towards melee characters, and without a Strength or Dex bonus, it's really difficult to make a great dwarf melee combatant.
Which is ironic because dwarves are known for being fantastic warriors in most fantasy lore.
I like the idea of playing a Dwarf but I tend to gravitate towards melee characters, and without a Strength or Dex bonus, it's really difficult to make a great dwarf melee combatant.
Which is ironic because dwarves are known for being fantastic warriors in most fantasy lore.
For me, this was the #1 thing that made me excited about Pathfinder 2nd edition- where your attribute bonuses from your ancestry include a "free" bonus to put wherever you want (including cancelling the penalty, but not doubling an existing bonus). So having a Dwarf fighter with 18 strength is not going to be absurdly expensive/improbable, since you could put your free bonus in Strength and have your dwarf have +2 Str/+2 Con/+2 Wis/-2 Cha.
Even if you're not excited about 2nd edition, it seems like that much is easy to backport. Dwarves especially are helped by this since relatively few classes key on con and wis.
I like the idea of playing a Dwarf but I tend to gravitate towards melee characters, and without a Strength or Dex bonus, it's really difficult to make a great dwarf melee combatant.
Which is ironic because dwarves are known for being fantastic warriors in most fantasy lore.
For me, this was the #1 thing that made me excited about Pathfinder 2nd edition- where your attribute bonuses from your ancestry include a "free" bonus to put wherever you want (including cancelling the penalty, but not doubling an existing bonus). So having a Dwarf fighter with 18 strength is not going to be absurdly expensive/improbable, since you could put your free bonus in Strength and have your dwarf have +2 Str/+2 Con/+2 Wis/-2 Cha.
Even if you're not excited about 2nd edition, it seems like that much is easy to backport. Dwarves especially are helped by this since relatively few classes key on con and wis.
I'm in complete agreement with you here. In 1E, I feel that race restricts your choice of classes way too much.
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I like the idea of playing a Dwarf but I tend to gravitate towards melee characters, and without a Strength or Dex bonus, it's really difficult to make a great dwarf melee combatant.
The job of a dwarf martial isn't to deliver the highest DPR, but to demonstrate paladin levels of resiliency. With Steel Soul and Glory of Old combined with free bumps to Con and Wis, you just motor through saving throws. Being +6 to two crucial saves is an excellent trade off for being -1/-(2or3) att.dmg vs being human with a strength bump. And you get to see in the dark.
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON+ 17 (dwarf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT: 10
WIS+ 16
CHA- 05
Traits: Glory of Old (regional|Hardy+1), Magical Knack (Cleric)
00 saves FT RF WI AC (raging vs. magic/poison/supernatural)
00 base: 08 07 08
01 barb1 10 07 08 [move+10], Raging Vitality
02 clerc1 12 07 10 [Community/Travel:move+10]
03 fight1 16 09 12 [FEAT(c), Steel Soul
Classes that key on Wisdom (except Constitution as noted), even not counting archetypes that change something keys on something else to key on Wis, apart from Vigilante, for which the relevant archetypes are like separate classes -- all these are excellent options for a Dwarf:
Core Classes
Cleric
Druid
Monk (more on Unchained because you have to make up for losing good Will Save relative to pre-Unchained)
Ranger
Base Classes
Gunslinger
Inquisitor
Hybrid Classes
Hunter
Shaman
Warpriest
Occult Classes
Kineticist (keys on Constitution)
Some Psychic Disciplines semi-key on Wisdom
Spiritualist
Intrigue Classes (actually archetypes)
Avenging Beast Vigilante
Zealot Vigilante
Wildsoul Vigilante with Arachnid Natural Course (keys on Constitution)
Wild Classes
Shifter
I like the idea of playing a Dwarf but I tend to gravitate towards melee characters, and without a Strength or Dex bonus, it's really difficult to make a great dwarf melee combatant.The job of a dwarf martial isn't to deliver the highest DPR, but to demonstrate paladin levels of resiliency. With Steel Soul and Glory of Old combined with free bumps to Con and Wis, you just motor through saving throws. Being +6 to two crucial saves is an excellent trade off for being -1/-(2or3) att.dmg vs being human with a strength bump. And you get to see in the dark.
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON+ 17 (dwarf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT: 10
WIS+ 16
CHA- 05Traits: Glory of Old (regional|Hardy+1), Magical Knack (Cleric)
00 saves FT RF WI AC (raging vs. magic/poison/supernatural)
00 base: 08 07 08
01 barb1 10 07 08 [move+10], Raging Vitality
02 clerc1 12 07 10 [Community/Travel:move+10]
03 fight1 16 09 12 [FEAT(c), Steel Soul
Very cool. I don't normally like odd numbers for stats, but otherwise it seems like a nice idea. Recommendation for weapons/armor? I could go two-handed, reach, or power turtle. I also worry about him being boring, looking for a way to maybe spice him up a bit. Were you thinking about bumping Con, or Str?
J
It works very well in point-buy, because you're maximizing what you get for the points. With the 15,15,14,14,10,7 array, you bump one 15 at 4th (strength) and the other (constitution) at 8th. At 12th, you bump something and buy a +1 Tome.Very cool. I don't normally like odd numbers for stats, but otherwise it seems like a nice idea.The job of a dwarf martial isn't to deliver the highest DPR, but to demonstrate paladin levels of resiliency. With Steel Soul and Glory of Old combined with free bumps to Con and Wis, you just motor through saving throws. Being +6 to two crucial saves is an excellent trade off for being -1/-(2or3) att.dmg vs being human with a strength bump. And you get to see in the dark.
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON+ 17 (dwarf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT: 10
WIS+ 16
CHA- 05Traits: Glory of Old (regional|Hardy+1), Magical Knack (Cleric)
00 saves FT RF WI AC (raging vs. magic/poison/supernatural)
00 base: 08 07 08
01 barb1 10 07 08 [move+10], Raging Vitality
02 clerc1 12 07 10 [Community/Travel:move+10]
03 fight1 16 09 12 [FEAT(c), Steel Soul
Recommendation for weapons/armor? I could go two-handed, reach, or power turtle.
Dwarven Giant-Sticker is a 2d6 polearm with the Brace and Reach properties, and hence a 3d6 weapon after swigging an Enlarge potion.
Minor error: increase all the Fort save numbers by 1; Raging Vitality increases Con an extra +2 while raging (that's right: you have a 23 Con while raging at 1st-level off only 7pts into point-buy! Dwarf oorah!).
Armor: in PFS, after starter Scale, I wore Quilted Cloth (unenhanced) underneath Four mirror (which I upgraded); the QC provided DR+3 versus piercing, and stand-off archery is an annoyance when you're enlarged.
Annoyance: wearing plate (or other heavy) cuts off barbarian extra move, so you either do without, or stack in an archetype that forfeits it anyway. Drunken Brute is an easy fit, as it'll let you slam potions as a move-action without spending a trait on Accelerated Drinker.
Option: Savage Technologist barbarian (stacks with Drunken Brute) is a favorite archetype of mine as it'll be AC+4 higher than other barbarians after swapping str/con raging to str/dex, and saves a feat on Raging Vitality, but there's a lot to be said for the meatwalling abilities of a dwarf with +4 hp/level versus, say, a half-orc Sav-Tech without a racial Con bump, or a normal human fighter.
I also worry about him being boring, looking for a way to maybe spice him up a bit.
By 2nd, your Diplomacy penalty melts away, and you're enjoying plentiful Cleric domain freebies as well as endless divine item use. (Bless is a great party spell, and especially useful when readied contingent upon noticing the enemy with your excellent Perception score.)
Further leveling: I would pick up one more level of barb (take the Rage Power Quick Reflexes), and go fighter thereafter.
I think the point about Dwarven stat "non-optimality" for martials (in terms of primary offensive stat) also applies to Dwarven Wizards, -1 to Spell DC being equivalent penalty to martial att/dmg, but even more work-around-able (non Save / multitarget / area spells) with same "resilience" in other areas. And after all, if you're dead or CC'd you aren't pulling any big attacks or spells off. Which is why narrow focus of "optimizing" is IMHO not very optimal. But I digress. My favorites are really about flavor more than "optimality", as long as normal functionality isn't impeded which isn't usually a high hurdle.
It works very well in point-buy, because you're maximizing what you get for the points. With the 15,15,14,14,10,7 array, you bump one 15 at 4th (strength) and the other (constitution) at 8th. At 12th, you bump something and buy a +1 Tome.Very cool. I don't normally like odd numbers for stats, but otherwise it seems like a nice idea.The job of a dwarf martial isn't to deliver the highest DPR, but to demonstrate paladin levels of resiliency. With Steel Soul and Glory of Old combined with free bumps to Con and Wis, you just motor through saving throws. Being +6 to two crucial saves is an excellent trade off for being -1/-(2or3) att.dmg vs being human with a strength bump. And you get to see in the dark.
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON+ 17 (dwarf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT: 10
WIS+ 16
CHA- 05Traits: Glory of Old (regional|Hardy+1), Magical Knack (Cleric)
00 saves FT RF WI AC (raging vs. magic/poison/supernatural)
00 base: 08 07 08
01 barb1 10 07 08 [move+10], Raging Vitality
02 clerc1 12 07 10 [Community/Travel:move+10]
03 fight1 16 09 12 [FEAT(c), Steel SoulRecommendation for weapons/armor? I could go two-handed, reach, or power turtle.Dwarven Giant-Sticker is a 2d6 polearm with the Brace and Reach properties, and hence a 3d6 weapon after swigging an Enlarge potion.
Minor error: increase all the Fort save numbers by 1; Raging Vitality increases Con an extra +2 while raging (that's right: you have a 23 Con while raging at 1st-level off only 7pts into point-buy! Dwarf oorah!).
Armor: in PFS, after starter Scale, I wore Quilted Cloth (unenhanced) underneath Four mirror (which I upgraded); the QC provided DR+3 versus piercing, and stand-off archery is an annoyance when you're enlarged.
Annoyance: wearing plate (or other heavy) cuts off barbarian extra move, so you either do without, or stack in an archetype that forfeits it anyway. Drunken Brute is an easy fit, as it'll let you slam potions as a move-action without spending a...
I love a lot of this. I'd probably take the Exploration subdomain for cleric, love it a bit more and get to retain the +10 move.
I can't get my saves at lvl 1 to match yours. The base saves (including the dwarf boosts) would be 8 5 6. Raging they'd be 11 5 8.
Only question I have is, you recommend getting a second level of Barb. If I did we're talking about 4 levels of dip before going into fighter, you don't think that'd be too much? I'd be tempted to take superstition if I did.
Three levels of dip I meant, not four. As I think about it, fighter isn't like paladin or wizard, where every single level counts. Barb does give significant abilities, as does cleric.
J
I can't get my saves at lvl 1 to match yours. The base saves (including the dwarf boosts) would be 8 5 6. Raging they'd be 11 5 8.STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON+ 17 (dwarf, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT: 10
WIS+ 16
CHA- 05Traits: Glory of Old (regional|Hardy+1), Magical Knack (Cleric)
00 saves FT RF WI AC (raging vs. magic/poison/supernatural)
00 base: 08 07 08
01 barb1 10 07 08 [move+10], Raging Vitality
02 clerc1 12 07 10 [Community/Travel:move+10]
03 fight1 16 09 12 [FEAT(c), Steel Soul
I wouldn't be surprised if I borfed it; let's itemize....
Base stats grant +3/+2/+3 F/R/W.
Hardy+GoO+SS = +5 to everything at 3rd.
Class levels add +6 Fort and +2 Will at 3rd.
Rage+Vitality adds +3 Fort and +2 Will at 3rd.
So total bonuses should be: 03...17 7 12
Attributes option: Dex 12, Int 13 instead of 14/10 in point-buy. This grants 50% move skillpoints, and the build is qualified for Int13 requirement feats without additional rigamorole. Lastly, AC remains the same in plate (at least, that is, prior to the Enlarge potion-swig). ...the build isn't much of a Quick Draw switch-hitter, so not such a bad idea. (It's also a rare case of a four-odd-stats starting array in point-buy that works.)
I'd probably take the Exploration subdomain for cleric, love it a bit more and get to retain the +10 move.Gloves of Reconnaissance and Feather Step Slippers are both only 2000gp, so I guess it matters whether you need to see through doors or avoid difficult terrain more as to whether you get best mileage out of Agile Feet or Door Sight.
Only question I have is, you recommend getting a second level of Barb. If I did we're talking about 4 levels of dip before going into fighter, you don't think that'd be too much?
Since Gloves of Dueling aren't affordable until 7th or 8th minimum, that's no rush in getting fighter 5th before then. Having Barb2 also means that Extra Rage Power is a general feat slot option should you want more. You'll also acquire Uncanny Dodge (assuming your archetype choice hasn't forfeited it), which may not mean that much given little emphasis on dexterity, but it is nice to thumb your nose at some sneak-attacking opponents who think going first means they gotcha.
Barb2 + rage power Quick Reflexes gives you a second AoO per round in an enlarged polearm build; Quick Reflexes is unaffected by your dexterity score (as is Combat Reflexes).
I'd be tempted to take superstition if I did.
Do you really think this dwarf needs further help with saving throws? (Paradoxically, Superstition will screw him when he needs help the worst: after he's rolled a 1. Then it thwarts your allies' magical attempt to unfwack you. (Disclosure: I hate Superstition.)
~ ~ ~
"Resilient Dwarf" ("smart" version)
STR: 15
DEX: 12
CON+ 17 (dwarf, 15,15,14,13,12,7 20pt array)
INT: 13
WIS+ 16
CHA- 05
Traits: Glory of Old (regional|Hardy+1), Magical Knack (Cleric)
00 HP (If raging as a PFS character)
01 18 barbarian [Drunken Brute], Raging Vitality
02 28 cleric1 [Community/Travel:move+10]
03 39 fighter1 [core] FEAT(c), Steel Soul
This guy enjoys 30' move in plate armor.
(Mulling....)
Steel Soul at 1st, and Raging Vitality at 3rd, is probably better. (You're more likely to blow a save by a few points at 1st or 2nd level than you are to get dropped to deep negative Con and then fail several fortitude saves before an ally CLWs.