Stealth in Combat

[St0nemender]

I am confused as to the rules of using stealth in combat:

The skill description states:

1. "Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement"
2. If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.

Which basicly means that at any time, i should be able to use a bluff check to be able to use stealth in combat as part of the move action. If i manage to move behind a tree, i can stealth without the bluff check. Since this is part of the move action, i should be able to that every turn before attacking.

That appears to be surprisingly easy. Am i getting something wrong?

[Mysterious Stranger]

Bluff allows you to use stealth at the beginning of the move. With a successful bluff check the person you are hiding from does not know exactly where you went. If you don’t use a bluff check the target of the stealth loses track of you when you duck behind the tree. They know which tree you ducked behind. If you make a bluff check they are not sure which tree you ducked behind, or even if you are behind a tree at all. For all they know you could have teleported away, or turned invisible.

[Mathmuse]

The Bluff check is not part of the Stealth check that comes with the Move action. A Bluff check is usually a standard action, or even longer if the bluff requires a conversation. For example, a Feint without Improved Feint is a standard action.

Thus, a character could make a Bluff check as a standard action to distract an opponent and then make a Stealth check as part of a Move action to get behind concealment. That works to disappear from the opponent's sight.

On the other hand, if a character merely moves behind a tree and then makes a Stealth check, then the opponent cannot see the character once line of sight is broken even if the tree ordinarily does not count as total concealment ("Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment."). Nevertheless, the opponent saw the character disappear behind the tree and believes that the character is still behind the tree. It is a good time to make another stealthy Move action and move behind a different tree, so that the opponent is fooled, but a bad idea to stay behind the first tree because the opponent will move to look clearly behind the first tree ("If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.").

St0nemender wrote:

Which basicly means that at any time, i should be able to use a bluff check to be able to use stealth in combat as part of the move action. If i manage to move behind a tree, i can stealth without the bluff check. Since this is part of the move action, i should be able to that every turn before attacking.

No, because the character does not have enough actions left to attack that turn. There are a few exceptions, such as hiding inside fog while using Fogcutting Lenses to see through the fog, but in general moving into Stealth means putting something between the character and his opponent. Getting around that something in order to attack takes another action.

It is possible to attack every other turn from stealth, assuming the opponent does not use its moves to follow the stealthy character. Some rogues use that tactic.

[Derklord]

The confusing part is that the stealth and bluff description are mostly copied from 3.5, but the text on "Creating a Diversion to Hide" was completely removed from the Bluff description, including what type of action it is. Thus, only the text in stealth remains. Said text, mostly copied from the 3.5 skill 'hide', was actually touched upon for Pathfinder (a minor clarification), so it's apparently not an artifact that was to be removed from the game but they forgot in the stealth description.

I don't normally like to do that, but in this case, I think the only sensitive course is to use the 3.5 rules on the topic:

3.5 Player's Handbook pg. 68 wrote:

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
(...)
Action: (...) A Bluff check made to feint in combat or create a diversion to hide is a standard action.

[gnoams]

The part you are missing is that every GM interprets the stealth rules differently and not just a little bit either, radically differently.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Derklord wrote:

The confusing part is that the stealth and bluff description are mostly copied from 3.5, but the text on "Creating a Diversion to Hide" was completely removed from the Bluff description, including what type of action it is. Thus, only the text in stealth remains.

Yeah, but the text in Stealth does remain, and that means it is still a legal tactic.

Stealth wrote:

You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

The fact that they omitted it from Bluff does suggest that they intended that use of Bluff to go away. But in a situation where the GM feels bound by RAW, such as in Pathfinder Society, the PC should be allowed to attempt this.

That being said, the description of Bluff, to my eye, seems to allow a GM Broad latitude in assigning circumstance Bonuses and Penalties on the Bluff Check. Convincing someone that you ran off this way instead of that way when they are looking right at you seems like at least a "Far-Fetched" lie, imposing a -10.

It seems to me that a GM in this case should be encouraged to penalize the PC's chance of success severely. This is especially so since there are other abilities a Stealthy PC might get and pay for to achieve the same effect.

St0nemender wrote:

That appears to be surprisingly easy.

It is, actually.

Ninja Vanishing Trick lets you turn Invisible for 1 Round as a Swift Action. You then can go run and Hide.

The False Attacker Rogue lets you use a Bluff Check as an Immediate Action to attack and not break Stealth. The Bluff Check makes the target think the attack came from some other direction. That requires that you have successfully hidden in the first place.

And there are other things, magic items that create duplicates, smoke bombs, spells, and such that create that diversion.

So, accomplishing that just with charm (Bluff Check) alone? Yeah, sure, I guess, if you think you are just that charming, go for it!