First off, I know this question has been hashed over years ago, but I just can't seem to get the archived threads to open. Hopefully this will be a easy question............
After casting a Summon Monster spell, how much control does the caster have when he cannot communicate with the creature? This can come up a lot with animals when the caster can't Speak with Animals. The spell description makes it pretty clear the creature will "attack the spell caster's opponents to the best of its ability". However, what if the choice of enemies is not very clear? For example, let's say a riding dog is summoned by a PC and begins attacking an enemy spell-caster. The enemy spell-caster then does a 5' step away from the dog and summons a riding dog of his own to attack the PC's riding dog. On the PC's riding dog's next turn, who does it attack? The enemy spell-caster, because it was the original target? Or the enemy riding dog because it is adjacent and a greater physical threat?
This example is just for the sake of having one. Hopefully someone who remembers the conclusions of the old threads and/or has a solid answer to this question can comment. Overall, I'm looking for a consensus guideline on how much control a PC can exert over a summons he cannot communicate with and based on this what action the summoned creature would take.
If you can communicate than the obey to the best of their ability. Otherwise they attack your nearest enemy.
So they would break off attacking an opponent to instead attack whatever enemy is nearest by the summoned creature's next turn? That could be the correct answer, but it seems more realistic that they would attack an opponent they have already been attacking.
Interesting point about Handle Animal. Assuming the animal comes "combat trained" then it would be a DC 10 to handle then. Would this then substitute for normal (i.e. language-based) communication to control who the animal attacks?
Also, if RAW is that a summoned creature would attack the nearest opponent, what if there are multiple nearest opponents?
So they would break off attacking an opponent to instead attack whatever enemy is nearest by the summoned creature's next turn? That could be the correct answer, but it seems more realistic that they would attack an opponent they have already been attacking.
Generally speaking I think they'd stay on whatever target they started with until it was dead, but some summoned creatures are smarter than others. A summoned Balor may act one way and a summoned fiendish dire rat an entirely different way.
Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table: Summon Monster. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
Those are the relevant texts for summon monster spells. Other spells might have other relevant text.
@TCG: I agree, I think it would depend on the type of creature. With more intelligent creatures you can't communicate with they would likely make more intelligent, independent actions. Because most of the lower-level summoning list are animal intelligence, I'm more focused on those types of creatures.
Any other thoughts on how an animal intelligence summons the summoner cannot communicate with would act would be welcome. Would I be correct in assuming that RAW doesn't really address this issue directly?
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If you can communicate with the summoned monster, you can give it specific commands, otherwise it just does its best to defeat your opponents for you.
For animal summons, you can command them if you can get speak with animals or have a high enough handle animal skill.
On a side note, most DMs I played with allows control of summons as long as you speak a similar language. Meaning they allow me to give commands in Celestial to Celestial Animals. The Animal summons understand you, but you can't get any replies, as the Celestial Animals only understand, but don't speak Celestial. Vice Visa for fiendish template summons.
This helps streamlining the commanding of summoned animals and make the game faster and easier. Otherwise a player got to make a lot of handle animal rolls, just to get his animals to say do non-lethal attacks on a target.
While the DM can make your life as a summoner easier, by RAW, you got to get hold of Speak with Animals, Handle Animals or the appropriate language to give very specific commands to summoned monsters.
It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability -- just like the spell says.
@TCG: I agree, I think it would depend on the type of creature. With more intelligent creatures you can't communicate with they would likely make more intelligent, independent actions. Because most of the lower-level summoning list are animal intelligence, I'm more focused on those types of creatures.
Any other thoughts on how an animal intelligence summons the summoner cannot communicate with would act would be welcome. Would I be correct in assuming that RAW doesn't really address this issue directly?
Devs leave certain things nebulous so you can make them work however you want them to in your campaign.
@A.S.: I get that it attacks opponents to the best of its ability, but I'm not sure that this resolves my question about what an animal intelligence creature would do if none of "its abilities" delineates which of multiple opponents it would attack.
@TCG: It seems you are correct that RAW doesn't give a clear answer regarding my question. In that case, I'd be interested in how other GM's have handled this issue. If an animal level summons can't be communicated with by the caster and has a choice of multiple contiguous opponents, how would you determine who it attacks?
@A.S.: I get that it attacks opponents to the best of its ability, but I'm not sure that this resolves my question about what an animal intelligence creature would do if none of "its abilities" delineates which of multiple opponents it would attack.
@TCG: It seems you are correct that RAW doesn't give a clear answer regarding my question. In that case, I'd be interested in how other GM's have handled this issue. If an animal level summons can't be communicated with by the caster and has a choice of multiple contiguous opponents, how would you determine who it attacks?
In our games we don't really stress about it. As long as its attacking the caster can pick the target.
"sic em"
*point*.
That's about it.
We used to do that too, but are now re-looking the issue to better match RAW. Do you allow the summons to make tactical movement then? For example, would you let it move to avoid AoO's or set up flanks for others?
We used to do that too, but are now re-looking the issue to better match RAW. Do you allow the summons to make tactical movement then? For example, would you let it move to avoid AoO's or set up flanks for others?
DO regular animals flank in your game?
If so then yes so would summoned animals because they attack 'to the best of their ability' and flanking is within their abilities and improves their attacks.
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That worked in 3.5, not PF. PF no longer grants celestial/fiendish a language (3 int). So it is handle animal, speak with animal, or attack nearest.
Yap that is by RAW. Summoned Animals-type creatures can only be commanded by Speak with Animals and Handle Animals.
Elementals, archons, devils, demons and other Intel 3 and above summoned monsters do understand their appropriate languages and if you have the right languages you can get them to do specific things for you.
@A.S.: I get that it attacks opponents to the best of its ability, but I'm not sure that this resolves my question about what an animal intelligence creature would do if none of "its abilities" delineates which of multiple opponents it would attack.
@TCG: It seems you are correct that RAW doesn't give a clear answer regarding my question. In that case, I'd be interested in how other GM's have handled this issue. If an animal level summons can't be communicated with by the caster and has a choice of multiple contiguous opponents, how would you determine who it attacks?
Usually this means they attack the closes target that threatens you the summoner. They don't care about tactics so they just attack the closest enemy that threatens you.
For example, You summon a monster next to an enemy. The monster attack that enemy for you. BUT! While attacking that enemy(1), YOU come under attack by another enemy(2). It MAY or MAY NOT stop attacking enemy 1 and go after enemy 2 to best protect you its summoner.
In any case, they are intel 2 animals so they just try to bring down your enemies asap. If they are wolves they may flank your target in a pack formation to bring it down faster.
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+1
Agree. Easy and simple for Wizard Summoners.
For the Summoner class (specifically Master Summoners) you can try playing a Gnome and getting Extra Gnomish Magic, which will allow you to cast speak with animals up to 4 times a day. Still takes a turn to do so... but hey your Summons are by mins per level.
Thanks everyone for the feedback, and sorry to rehash a topic I'm sure was solved in other threads a while ago. Per Gary Teeter, there's a problem with accessing the archived boards at the moment, just FYI.
No problem -- this one was kind of fun.
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I think the handle animal talk is a perfect idea of what may be wrong. People think skills are useless and Cha can be dumped. If we don't play by the rules (as I'm realizing most of us do not), this is the case. Enforcing rules like this will make the optimal Summon Monster 3 (d4+1 riding dogs) look far worse unless you invested those skill points. Same for the Druid, another class that often dumps both Int and Cha. "your animal companion sniffs wondering what you want it to do".
A well-rounded conjurer might want to take a couple ranks of Handle Animal so that he can attempt to convey who to attack.
In your example, the official RaW is that the dog is distracted by the other dog, but I'd base it on the specific animal summoned. Certain predators (particularly if larger than the new arrival) would probably prefer to shift and bring down their original prey, while those with a more defensive mindset (especially if smaller than the new arrival) would turn their attention to the closest danger.
Fiendish template allows for intelligent creatures that can obey commands without the use of handle animal.
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First off, I know this question has been hashed over years ago, but I just can't seem to get the archived threads to open. Hopefully this will be a easy question............
After casting a Summon Monster spell, how much control does the caster have when he cannot communicate with the creature? This can come up a lot with animals when the caster can't Speak with Animals. The spell description makes it pretty clear the creature will "attack the spell caster's opponents to the best of its ability". However, what if the choice of enemies is not very clear? For example, let's say a riding dog is summoned by a PC and begins attacking an enemy spell-caster. The enemy spell-caster then does a 5' step away from the dog and summons a riding dog of his own to attack the PC's riding dog. On the PC's riding dog's next turn, who does it attack? The enemy spell-caster, because it was the original target? Or the enemy riding dog because it is adjacent and a greater physical threat?
This example is just for the sake of having one. Hopefully someone who remembers the conclusions of the old threads and/or has a solid answer to this question can comment. Overall, I'm looking for a consensus guideline on how much control a PC can exert over a summons he cannot communicate with and based on this what action the summoned creature would take.
I know that much has been hashed on this, but I would like to point this one thing out.
Most summoning spells are a 1 round casting time. So the summoned creature appears just before your next turn.
In your example above, the wizard would take the 5' step away from the dog and begin casting. The Dog would then take a 5' step to the wizard to continue to chew on him, forcing him to make a concentration check to continue the spell.
I only state this as rarely have I seen a situation where the summoned would be a closer target then the wizard that the dog started chewing on originally.
As for the original question, I view it as this. If you cannot communicate with the summoned creature, it acts by intelligence. For something like a dog, it may attack the nearest enemy to where it was summoned, and then move on to the next when the first is down. I view it as the handle animal commands of Attack, and if no targets, then defend.